Polybutylene Pipe Questions


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Old 10-14-06, 08:51 PM
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Polybutylene Pipe Questions

Lately I have heard some real horror stories about polybutylene pipe. My wife and I have actually gotten calls from plumbers who want ot replace our pipes offering us deals that sound a lot like siding salesmen. My house was plumbed with polyb and the plastic and brass compression fittings were used. Cutoff valves for lavs toilets are made of metal and connect via compression fittings that are part of the valve.

I have had some leaks. All were in a wall where a sort of manifold had been assembled and I think the cause of the leaks was an origonal installation problem. The pipe was bent too sharply right at the connection to the compression fitting and this caused the leaks at the fitting.

Most of the info I have found on the internet suggest I should have it all ripped out and replaced but this info all seems to be coming from those who would like to do the job.

I have found some info that suggest the only problem with it is the connectors. This seems to be born out by the fact that the class action suit does not pertain to plumbing that use certain connectors.

Jimmie

Is there any place where I can find definitive information on this subject
 
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Old 10-15-06, 07:22 AM
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As you have already found out on the internet, PB pipe was a nightmare. There were at least 2 major class action suits. You could google around the net a try to find out if your particular situation still falls within the last windows, which are closing rapidly, for any compensation.

The first problems had to do with certain fittings, and certain brands of pipe.

It is subsequently known that PB pipe reacts badly to the chlorine content in domestic water. It had been used successfully for many years in hot water heating, where the clorine and oxygen residuals were very low due to the closed loop system, so they started using it on the domestic water, with bad results.

Whether or not you have any leaks now, and whether or not you can get any compensation, I would never live in a house plumbed with PB. Get a few estimates for a repipe. Beware of con artists, but there are reputable firms who do nothing but repipe.....they are good at it and can probably underbid a local general service plumbing contractor because of their efficiency at repipes.

As a rule, copper is the material of choice. However, there are areas where water chemistry makes copper susceptible to pinholes. PEX tubing is widely used, and accepted by code in many but not all areas. FInd out what is most commonly used in your area/
 
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Old 10-15-06, 10:16 AM
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Thanks but I am really not looking for this kind of second hand info, I have plenty of this. What I am looking for is a web site or other source of information that I know will be giving me some sound data.

I do not wish to offend but so far I have talked to a couple of people who specialise in repipe work. From what I have seen them do in my neighbors home they spend about a day doing the plumbing and the rest of the time is doing the drywall repair. I have no intention of paying plumber prices for handyman work.
When I asked them how much they would charge just to do the plumbing work they balked.

They had removed the old plumbing from the other houses that did and when I asked about saving money by leaving the old plumbing in place he said they didnt do substandard work like that. I didnt know abandoing old plumbing in pace was considered substandard work.

So you see I have quite a bit of doubt about the validity of what needs to be done. I do know the connectors can be a problem especially if they are not properly installed. But I havent seen anything indicating that the pipe is a problem. This is after seeing some of the pipe I removed from my house and seeing pipe rmoved frome 4 other homes after a repipe job. It all appeared as new inside and out.


Has anyone here seen the rotted out pipes that the horror stories are based on?
 
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Old 10-17-06, 05:44 AM
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I have been contiuing my resarch into this problem and what I am discovering is that most of the problems with polybutylene plumbing is caused by BAD CONNECTORS that arent even made of polyB, they are an acetate compound and IMPROPER INSTALLATION of the connectors. This includes crimp on connectors that are too tight, too loose and pipes bent too sharply near the connectors. The failures of the pipe were limited to a few brands, QEST and I understand ther are a couple of more but I dont have there names. I gleaned this information from a study done by the Universty of Arizona. I also contacted my insurance agent and she remembered a few pipe failures in the early 90s but none since then, failures since then have been due to the fittings being improperly installed, freezing and a few other things not important to this discussion. This information is from her experience and she called two or three adjusters and asked about their experience with it. She is going to check and see if the insurance companies have any more information.

Any information that can be added, confirmed , or disputed would be greatly appreciated.

Jimmie
 
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Old 10-17-06, 08:12 AM
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If you google PB pipe, you will find a wealth of information.

The first problems involved fittings, but it has later been found that the pipe itself is also a problem in chlorinated water. Note that PB is no longer an approved material by any plumbing code anywhere. It is your choice whether to live with it. There is probably no legal requirement that a homeseller remove the pipe if it is not leaking.

If you want to live in a house plumbed by handymen, that is also your choice. And if you think that drywall repair to like-new not visible repair status is a handyman job, that is also your choice. I believ you should be able to find a plumber to do just the plumbing, but there may be some legal issues that discourage such a contract. This, and the issue of abandoning pipe in place, are all LOCAL code issues, so you should contact your local authorities on that. I believe that it is common industry practice to leave most, not necessarily all, the old pipes in place.

In any event, you should try to get 2 or 3 estimates from companies with good local reputation. And have a lawyer review the status of the class actions to see if you would be entitled to any reimbursement.
 
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Old 10-17-06, 04:54 PM
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Following staement is typical of what I have found on the internet, A long way from what I would call a definite answer.

""Will the Pipes Fail?
While scientific evidence is scarce, it is believed that oxidants in the public water supplies, such as chlorine, react with the polybutylene piping and acetal fittings causing them to scale and flake and become brittle. Micro-fractures result, and the basic structural integrity of the system is reduced. Thus, the system becomes weak and may fail without warning causing damage to the building structure and personal property. It is believed that other factors may also contribute to the failure of polybutylene systems, such as improper installation, but it is virtually impossible to detect installation problems throughout an entire system.""

The key phrase here is "scientific evidence is scarce". I cant even find any anecdotal evidence on the pipes failing other than a very specific make of pipe called QEST. The only failure stories I can find in the last 10 or 15 year history of the material relates to the connectors which at my home was a problem and a relatively easy matter to correct. This problem per the insurance adjuster and my own oberservation was related to improper installation. IF the pipe is bent beyound its recommended radius it will cause the seals at compression joints to fail and the joints which are more brittle than the pipe to break over time. Even PEX or Cu will fail if misstreated.

I am not trying to defend Polybutylene pipe but rather trying to determine if there is a reason for me to spend thousands of dollars on a repipe job. Unless there were joints made beneath the slab which would be against code all my joints have been replaced with solid brass compression fittings and the pipe checked for proper dress. The only poblem I found was at the water manifolds where the pipe was bent beyound its reccomended radius and leaks at seals and one cracked connector was found.


I would be most grateful for personal accounts of the pipe actually breaking down.

BTW the handymen I have used to do sheetrock repair have all done excellent work. As a matter of fact they are the only people you can get to come out for a small job.
 
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Old 10-23-06, 09:52 PM
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There are few things in plumbing that have as bad a rep as PB piping. But there nothing that says you have to repipe, if your insurance company is willing to cover you.

You might give some thought to preparing for a piping failure in your house, if you haven't already. If the design of your house is such that a water pipe can break and w/o causing extensive damage, you can live with PB & see what unfolds over time. There are flood guards & warning systems; you could look into those & put off repiping until you're satisfied that it's necessary, which sounds like the direction you're leaning anyway.

And I've never thought it made any sense to pay me plumbers' wages to do carpentry or sheetrock (unless it's really small & quick).
 
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Old 10-27-06, 08:25 AM
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[QUOTE=steve_gro]There are few things in plumbing that have as bad a rep as PB piping.

Sounds like a girl I used to date. She wasnt bad , she was just built that way.

With the problems I have had I can see why. I have learned all makes of the pipe wernt included in the suits so I am assuming from this some are better than others. I have also learned that all flexible pipe including PEX is more subject to abuse in installation. There are a lot of plumbers that are just to lazy or cheap to put in that extra elbow to make a turn. I ve seen this in PolyB, Pex and even soft copper.

Yes I have decided to live with the pipe after replacing the connectors. I removed part of the pipe and examined it and ther is no evidence of deterioration after 16 years of use so I will probably check it again in five or ten years by removing another piece for examination.
 
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Old 10-28-06, 08:10 AM
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You have done careful research and made an informed decision. No one can argue with that, even if not all will agree.

The reason that SHELL OIL was sued is that they made all the plastic resin, that was then used by various companies to make the pipe.

It is certainly true that ANY pipe , including copper, is subject to failures if improperly applied or installed. Search on underslab copper pipe leaks, and you will open up a can of worms even bigger than this PB flap!
 
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Old 10-28-06, 11:54 AM
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I have given those who dont agree a chance to speak in more than one forum than this and can get no one to give an example of pipe failure in recent history. All I get is that I shouldnt keep the pipe. No evidence to back this up. The best credible evidence I have is from my insurance agent and a couple of adjusters that she got me intouch with. They have never had a problem with the pipe and my company State Farm has no problem insuring my house. Shell did change its formula early on when the problems first developed but this was probably too late, they already had the reputation.

I have been in contact with several plumbers through my activities with Habitat and thier first response to a question about polyb is to rip it out. But then after further questioning they also admit that the pipe hasnt been a problem in many years, Its the connections. This is evident in the latest designs to correct problems with them. You can still get connections for POlyb but as I am sure you are aware they are designed to discourage sharp bends near the connector. This also makes them a real pain to work with in confined spaces

I DO personaly know of some pipe failures but until now have chosen not to mention them. All were in mobile homes built in the 70s and it took 20 years for the problem to appear. This correlates with info I got from my insurance company and University of Arizona study. There is still the occasional failure of the pipe but again this is pipe that was installed in the 70s, early 80s. Pipe installed after this period seems to be good but the installation was really a problem especially in homes where plumbers used old plumbing techniques with branches running everywhere instead of the running plumbing homerun style back to a manifold as mine is
There were also problems with the crimp on connections because the crimp tools were not maintained. These tools had similaries with high reliabilty crimp tools used for aviation wiring. While they can perform there function very well they must be regularly tested and aligned to continue to operate properly.

It is my opinion that there are companies that are taking advantage of a hysteria about Polybutylene plumbing. There are problems but I dont think ripping out ones plumbing is the appropriate answer. For me I am going to hang onto mine for another few years. Maybe some one will come out with a coating you can pump through your pipes to restore them instead of replacing them while I am waitng. I invision an epoxy material that can be pumped through the pipes coating the inside and then appling air presure to force it into pin holes and other leaks and to remove excess coating material.
 
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Old 10-28-06, 08:11 PM
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The epoxy liner system you mention already exists. There are more than one company, but the one I have seen advertised is Ace Duraflow. I don't know it they can do piping which is a flexible as PB.

Go into a box store on Sunday afternoon. ( This is when PB pipe ALWAYS leaks!) You will find folks in there trying in vain to find repair fittings, because plumbers who will answer their phone on Sunday get $300 per hour.
 
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Old 10-29-06, 10:34 AM
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Quote:

Go into a box store on Sunday afternoon. ( This is when PB pipe ALWAYS leaks!) You will find folks in there trying in vain to find repair fittings, because plumbers who will answer their phone on Sunday get $300 per hour.



Yes indeed, especially with dealing with this piping and the circumstances that surround them. And sometimes the customer wants me to feel sorry for them. Not going to happen.

There's enough information about this pipe to know what you are getting into when you purchase a trailer/mfg. home with this piping system.
 
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Old 10-31-06, 11:19 AM
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yes, there is plenty of information around but most of it is the same repeat of the incomplete story. Little information on how the plumbing sytem fails, just a lot of "I wouldnt have that junk in my house" with no why's. To find out how the plumbing fails takes some digging.

For those people looking for repair parts on SUndays they are probably looking for the wrong stuff. Stay away from that specially made for PolyB repair. Use regular old brass compression fittings. They are more expensive but they work great.

Maybe there are places where the water is so corrosive that it damages the pipes, you probably shouldnt be drinking that stuff, and I would treat it before it came into the house.

Maybe if my plumbing sytem is old style with dozens of splices located who knows where, then I would replace my pipes.
 
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Old 02-10-14, 08:20 PM
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PB Pipe from water meter into the house

Hi Jimmie,

Your last post was in 2005. How has your experience been with PB pipes.

I am about to buy a house and discovered after the Due Diligence period that the main pipe from water meter entering the house is PB. The owner replaced all the PB pipes in the house but this (don't ask me why). I have been given an estimate of $1500 to replace this pipe.

Is it worth fixing it, if it is not broken?

Would appreciate your reply.
 
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Old 02-11-14, 06:19 AM
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Welcome to the forum, however Jimmie has not been back in 7years. You might want to start a new thread so someone else can help you.
I will close this thread in the meantime.
 
 

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