No pressure from Moen shower valve

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  #1  
Old 02-03-08, 12:43 PM
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No pressure from Moen shower valve

I have a new house (lived in three years) and have a shower plus a combo tub/shower valve in another bath. These are Moen valves (probably antiscald).I see both have small in line stop ball valves. The problem, there isn't a adequate water pressure comes out either valve for taking a shower. I've tried everything including flushing with core out and noted good pressure. I have replaced the MOEN cartridge with a new replacement Moen sent me after complaining about the poor pressure. They have such poor presure wife and daughter can't rinse longer hair out after shampooing.

Are these Moen valves noted by anybody else as water stingy as I have found? What do I have to do. We virtually have marked the showers as unusable.

bs5
 
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Old 02-03-08, 03:41 PM
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Check the shower heads for debris. Has this always been a problem?? If yes, are the shutoff valves full throat valves, should be. If no, check shower heads for debris,and calcification of the openings. If there is calcium buildup, CLR or similar will dissolve it.
 
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Old 02-03-08, 03:47 PM
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Are these balanced units? Take the cover plate off and see if you can see two screw heads deep in the wall. They should be facing in line with the water flow. That is how they are balanced. Hot or cold gets out of hand, you turn it down a little by turning the screw. Of course I have never seen them on a Moen. Hansgroe and others, though. Makes it nice for cartridge changes, too. Just turn the balance screws off and do your change out. No need to turn the whole house off.
 
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Old 02-03-08, 04:32 PM
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Originally Posted by chandler View Post
Are these balanced units? Take the cover plate off and see if you can see two screw heads deep in the wall. They should be facing in line with the water flow. That is how they are balanced. Hot or cold gets out of hand, you turn it down a little by turning the screw. Of course I have never seen them on a Moen. Hansgroe and others, though. Makes it nice for cartridge changes, too. Just turn the balance screws off and do your change out. No need to turn the whole house off.
===============

Thanks Just Bill and chandler,

just bill, these have been stingy with water from the gitgo and shower head holes are in deed fully open..

bs5


chandler, Yes sir they must be as you say, "balanced
valves" and I thought they were nothing more than line stops miniball valves. They are both on full.Any ideas how I can squeeze more water from the stoopid thing.


Thanks,

bs5
 

Last edited by bullshooter5; 02-03-08 at 04:36 PM. Reason: typo
  #5  
Old 02-03-08, 06:23 PM
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OK, let's get really simple. Go to your water heater and trace down the lines to make sure there are no valves installed between there and the shower/tubs. Any valves you see that are not ball valves, could be culprits. Let us know if you find any. Report, too what size pipe services these units and where that size starts. In other words, do you have a full 3/4 trunk line with the 1/2" supplies branching off close to the location of the bathrooms?
 
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Old 02-04-08, 03:30 AM
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Good Morning Larry,

OK, thanks for the response. it is a 1/2 " copper supply branching off a 3/4 copper trunk. I believe the plumbers got it right. I do have a gravity flow circulator return on this branch and it works effectively to keep hot water at the lavatory sinks with adequate pressure so I believe the problem has to be confined to that stand alone shower valve since the showerhead is not plugged and the hot tub right next to shower has more than sufficient pressure. The only valves suspected are those two little bitty stop valves built into the shower valve. I have used them and they do turn OK and stop water flow effectively. Turning them 90* from full off to full on does not seem to supply full flow.

bs5
 
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Old 02-04-08, 04:27 AM
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Just waitin' for the sun to get up. I concur with you, then, since all other faucets work properly. I know you said the shower heads are clear, but just to humor Bill and I, could you remove one of the heads and see how much pressure comes out of the stack? I'm fishing for an answer that will preclude your having to change out the entire valve body. And, since you have the balance valves, try removing the cartridge , placing a bucket over the valve body to deflect the water and open the hot and cold stops to see if the pressure is present at the valve body. Your OP said you may have already done this. If so, it centers around the cartridge.
 
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Old 02-04-08, 02:37 PM
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So all that was done and then I tried revolving the stops with a screw driver and found they felt a bit dirty. So, I managed to get them working freeely and left them open. Now while the little ball valves are open and stem cartridge removed i turned water back on and flushed water through the valve thinking maybe I had removed some hard water deposit by revolving ball valve and a blast of water would blow it clean. after putting it back together I thought there, take that. Now, it's time to see if I did any good. Turned pump back on plenty of pressure every where except the shower. The only thing I did not due is remove that little snap ring holding that tiny ball stop valve and clean. Quite truthfully, i am almost afraid to because I'm afraid of either not getting it to go back together or having a leak. I already managed to get water in wall cavity from flushing valve with out stem valvle. Do I dare remove those two internal snap rings and proceed to remove and clean ball valves? That has got to be the problem. The tub spiggot at other bathroom is for bath and shower. There is unacceptable levels from both tub and shower valves when used. For a shower it is even more imperative you get better pressure.

I suspect these little stop valves in shower valve are crusty with water deposit. The no longer are effective at totally stopping flow. i found that out today when I tried flushing with waterwhile cartridge was out.

I suppose I either replace the damn valve (means cutting exposed drywall and installing a panel) ore possibly taking apart those little stop valves from escutcheon hole. if i do that than it will invariably leak and I have to shut down whole house and hire a plumber to replace valve. Those little valves are held in their with real small inside brass spring lock rings. What do you think? I know one thing........I hate plumbing but mean no offense to you guys who know your stuff.

I have always liked the old classic single stem cartridge push pull shower valves and they have always held up well but these new valves by Moen are unacceptable. i do have very hard water but if i could replace these new fancy low pressure things, i would not reuse this style......no sir.


bs5
 
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Old 02-04-08, 06:41 PM
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Being late to the game, I have a question or two:

Did you switch showerheads?

Is the house new to you? Or is it really three years old?

Personally, I would not take apart the stops. You said you flushed the valve out, did you get a gush of water 3-4 feet? Or, pouring out like a foot? Thanks.
 
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Old 02-05-08, 02:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Terd Herder View Post
Being late to the game, I have a question or two:

Did you switch showerheads?

Is the house new to you? Or is it really three years old?

Personally, I would not take apart the stops. You said you flushed the valve out, did you get a gush of water 3-4 feet? Or, pouring out like a foot? Thanks.
===============================

Hi Ted,
I shall answer your questions as best I can.

I not only tried the shower stream with a different shower head I also took the shower head completely off and tested the stream which in either case was insufficient. From my prospective, I feel we can rule the shower head out. Every other fixture on this branch has a sufficient water pressure including the jacuzzi right next to this shower stall we are dealing with.

Flushing the valve out: I double checked to make sure stops were wide open with water system completely drained. Then I completely removed the Moen cartridge. Wife remained at the shower while I went down in basement and switched on pump at electrical panel. Wife watched at shower valve trying to hold a funnel against the disassembled moen valve to prevent water from splattering in wall cavity. We were trying to be careful because this was an awkward task and despite precautions some water dampened the wall cavity under valves and between drywalled studs. I could not observe stream of water because wife was at that spot and I manned pump switch at other end of house in Basement. I also suspected perhaps the stream of water did not have a chance to build up much pressure as I did not want water from valve flooding that wall cavity. Wife claimed water shot
out but with how much pressure, i can't know.

I have to be gaurded taking that valve apart because if I don't get it back together right and it leaks, I'm screwed because there I am with no way to isolate that branch and the whole darn Msystem has to remain unpressurized until I get valve fixed or replaced. Taking the moen cartridge out and apart is another thing as I feel comfortable having done so before.

Now,this house was completed like four and a half years ago and I bought it and have lived here two years and a half. The water is unfortunately very hard and hard on plumbing so probably the problem lies in those little bitty valves becoming encrusted. I will have to cut a hole in drywall facing jacuzzi to facilitate replacing the main valve unit. Pressure at this shower has never been good. Maybe water sat in pipes to long without being used and being it is so hard attacked that brass Moen stop valve and left deposits. It's awful at 180 grains raw before it gets to softener.

Nothing has been easy with this damn job.

Thanks for checking in.

bs5
 

Last edited by bullshooter5; 02-05-08 at 03:24 AM. Reason: typos
  #11  
Old 02-05-08, 05:12 AM
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Thanks for answering my questions.

You mention pump. I take this to mean you are on a well. I had a customer a couple years ago hired me to install a Gerber shower valve with body jets built in. He had a whole issue of problems. The only thing we could track it down to was the water pressure. It required more than his well could supply, or close to it. What is the model valve you have? Maybe check schematics, see what the pressure requirements are. Certainly one more avenue to check.

Dont lose faith in the Moen product. They are great quality, and about one of the simplest to work on. Did you check the pressure balancer (large brass nut above the cartidge). Those sometimes stick and clog too.

Then again, it would not be the first time debris gets caught in a valve body either. Good Luck!
 
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Old 02-05-08, 11:36 AM
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Hi Ted,

The number 109262 is cast into top of valve. That' all I have to ID the thing with other than it takes a Moen cartridge.

I agreee that Moen' are good valves and used to have the push/pull for on/off and turn for hot control. They were much simpler and a change of cartridge once in a while and they worked forever.

I do not like the new style that has those two little valves but I guess it's all apparent if you read this complete thread.

There is no adjusting nut on this valve. The only thing other than cartridge control iis the two ball stops in the valve
Thanks for checking in.

bs5
 
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Old 02-05-08, 07:22 PM
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Hi, I have a Moen faucet in my kitchen that I have the same problem. I found that the water flow was limited
to 1/8 inch hole for water flow. I would suggest you remove the Cartride and see if you can tell how big the ports in the valve are, if the look fair size I would take the old cartridge and take a close look and possibly redrill the holes in the cartridge to allow more water flow.
Good Luck Woodbutcher
 
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Old 02-06-08, 03:06 AM
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l just somehow lost a whole darn page of text I had typed a split second before I could post it. Now I'm really steamed at myself.

Long story short, it's gotta be the built in mini line stop ball valves.........stoopid! That was a note to self. Tech support at Moen says these newer valves will never allow for the water pressure of the older ones because water huggers have apparently gotten their way. Yup,Moen has a water savings standards their valves can't exceed.

Having said this, my shower pressure is still not acceptable. The tech guy wants me to remove the snap rings and r&r those little built in line stops. Debris in there have got to be restricting the flo. We shall see about that today after I locate and purchase a snap ring plier. Will let you know.

bs5
 
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Old 02-06-08, 09:58 AM
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WOW! I have all new (within 3 years) and have great pressure. What is everyones definition of "great" pressure?
 
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Old 02-06-08, 10:56 AM
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Hope this helps

Take the water saver out of your shower head and it will help a bit. I have a subdivision that I am plumbing where they wanted moen fixtures exclusively and as the gentleman mentioned above some do have small orifices in the tub and shower valve particularly all of the single handle base models i.e. Eva, Chateau ect.. . If your shower head is bigger than 4 inches you'll definitely want take out the water saver if it's pressure your looking for. Outside of increasing the pressure to your house that's really your only options. To find out how much pressure you are getting in your house you'll need to go to Lowes, Home Depot, a plumbing supply or hardware store and get a 100lb pressure guage. Tell them you want a female hose connection on the end of it. Or get the following
  • 100lb test gauge
  • test block
  • snifter
  • 3/4" x 4" galvanized nipple
  • 3/4" FIP x Female Hose Adapter

Put that on an outside hydrant or your laundry box and check your pressure. If it's 50lbs or less that's probably your problem. If you have a pressure regulator:

you'll need to loosen the nut on the top stem and screw the stem all the way in. If your on a well you'll need to increase the pressure at the pump.
If you can't increase the pressure get a water saving shower head which will give you less volume but increase the pressure through constriction.
 
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Old 02-06-08, 12:58 PM
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Water saving devices control the volume (amount) of water. People complain about pressure, because the old style heads did not control the amount of water coming thru. It was easier to wash hair back in those days. To conserve water, the devices were installed. Customers hate them, but they are mandated by law, to save water.
 

Last edited by Terd Herder; 02-06-08 at 02:38 PM.
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Old 02-06-08, 04:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Terd Herder View Post
WOW! I have all new (within 3 years) and have great pressure. What is everyones definition of "great" pressure?
This is quite surprising, but I know first hand that it is possible, with the right shower head, to develop pressure that appears to be normal, in the pins and needles setting, and yet if the shower head is taken off the arm or the tub spout runs, the water coming out is about as big around as a straw- well, maybe 2 straws. I'm not exaggerating. It goes to show what a shower head design can make up for. I'm sure though, that based on low volume, that even though the spray looks and feels like there would be good volume (if a person had not witnessed the flow the way I earlier described), that since there obviously CAN'T be, that it must take longer to get all the soap and shampoo off/out.
 
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Old 02-11-08, 08:42 AM
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You have a 2570 if I'm not mistaken.

http://www.faucetdepot.com/faucetdep...ELAID=27023339

If you have replaced the 1222B Cartridge then it is in fact your check-stop valves. I would advise removing and flushing the system with them out, they made need to be replaced.
 
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Old 02-11-08, 04:35 PM
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I have been procrastinating prior to the last remaining task; short of replacing the whole valve and that is the job of removing the built in micro ball stops. With my luck they will surely leak at the time I clean them and replace them.

Plus Moen is sending me a new stem valve and when I remove those line stops I should replace them as mentioned. So, if i can find new plastic replacement balls for the inline stops i might get this job done. I promise a final visit to this forum and a final post when i accomplish this last hoorah before cutting open the dry wall and R&R this darn thing with a different valve.

bs5
 
  #21  
Old 02-16-08, 04:52 AM
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OK, I have two new ball stop valve inserts now plus a new cartridge. Monday is the day that I will pull out the old ball stop built in valve inserts and flush system. Then I shall replace the old with newly supplied ball stops inserts. it has got to wait till Monday, reason:wife knows my history on leaky plumbing repairs so wants to make sure we have a backup plan should my workmanship not pass muster. As for me, I shall just pretend she did not say that because I know that she really doesn't mean it.

Special thanks to Big Boi Moen and all the rest of you. We shall see how things turn out and will report Monday or Tuesday.

bs5
 
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Old 02-18-08, 12:32 PM
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I just spent a half hour composing my posting to have it disappear. Here I go again.

I flushed the system real good after removing all the valves including the two line stops and replacement cartridge Moen #1222. I replaced both of the line stops and tested for leaks. It was time to try this shower for pressure

I was disappointed to find out that I had not made any improvements as the pressure was still sub par. So, that means it is just my presssure despite the fact that jacuzzi and both lavs in this very bathroom and on this same trunk have plenty of water pressure.

So, for now I guess I just will have to turn up the water pump cut in and out currently set at 50/30 which was always sufficient before at my last house. I guess I can go to 60/40 and keep my fingers crossed nothing leaks.

Moen are still the best valves out there and I will make it a point to always use them. Thanks everybody for the help and special thanks to big boi Moen

bs5
 

Last edited by bullshooter5; 02-18-08 at 12:35 PM. Reason: typos
  #23  
Old 05-21-08, 09:17 AM
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MOEN positemp valve hot water problem

Hi All,

I just finished fixing my positemp shower valve to regain adequate hot water. I too had very low pressure and little to no hot water. Moen told me to take out the cartridge and see if it rattles. If it doesn't, then the inside part is stuck. They sent me instructions on how to take the cartridge apart and clean it, Basically push the brass stem out of the plastic cartridge. Pry off the little white plastic cap at the end of the piece that came out and then take out the spool inside. Clean with warm water and white vinegar. Reassemble and you're good to go. Took me about 30 minutes.

Good luck.

Mark
 
  #24  
Old 08-29-12, 03:53 PM
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Same Problem!

I have a Moen single handle just like what you are describing. I have the same exact problem. I've tried all of the solutions you guys are suggesting. I think the product just decreases flow either by design or incidentally. I'm going to try a Delta H20 Kinetic shower head. Should come in the mail tomorrow. I'll let you know if it makes a difference.
My other shower has a Delta single handle faucet. It will sting you with water pressure.
 
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Old 08-29-12, 04:47 PM
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Closing thread.

Post is old, and has various questions that were asked or answered. I feel nothing else can be added to the thread. Everything was addressed that needed to be.

jforrestn, please start a new thread in the plumbing section if you still have an issue with your Moen faucet. I will be glad to assist you.
 
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