Need 3/4" Siphoning (Not Anti-Siphoning) Valve

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  #1  
Old 03-08-08, 03:54 PM
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Need 3/4" Siphoning (Not Anti-Siphoning) Valve

I need a 3/4" siphoning valve with a container that
can hold at least 1 qt. of fluid, similar to the garden
sprayers that are used to apply pesticides, fertilizers,
etc.

The valve should be brass, not plastic. It will be
installed near a water heater. The container does
not have to be as heat resistant as the valve,
because it will be screwed to the valve for 10 or
15 minutes, every couple of weeks.

The valve doesn't need a sophisticated metering
adjustment. The rate at which the fluid in the
container enters the water stream is not important.

What do I need it for? If you can point my browser
to a website selling this type of valve, I'll be happy
to tell you my long, and very boring story!

Thanks guys.
 
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Old 03-08-08, 09:29 PM
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I think it is better that you explain what you are trying to accomplish BEFORE anyone gives you ideas that could be hazardous to your, and others, health.
 
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Old 03-09-08, 04:04 AM
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I agree with Furd, information we give you can be good or bad based on the lack of information you give us as to the purpose. It sounds as if you are injecting fluorine or chlorine into your water heater, which, if done without metering, can be bad. Let us know what you are doing in, say, 200 words or less. Just a synopsis will do.
 
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Old 03-09-08, 03:08 PM
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Many years ago, I was a very conservative HVAC
contractor. Conserative in area of safety, that is.
I subscribed to something called "code plus." I
would follow all the regulations and go several
steps beyond the code to protect my customers.

I still do an occasional job for an old customer. Frankly,
I kind of miss the business. When I started to grow
my business the work load almost killed me. Also, I
found out that being responsible for the errors my
employees made, kept me from sleeping at night. I
had to get out.

I've got a friend and old customer who moved into
a small house after their children went to college, etc.
The house is built on a slab, no basement. The utility
room is tiny. It contains a washer-dryer, and a gas
fired water heater and furnace. I'd like to add a
water softener and/or whole house filter system. You
would have to knock down walls to expand the size
of the utility room.

The problem is "smelly water" or hydrogen sulfide.
I replaced the water heater. The old unit was
badly rusted. The new heater came with a solid
aluminum anode rod. The problem went away for
a few days. I flushed the system with bleach.
When that failed to keep the anaerobic bacteria
away I tried hydrogen peroxide. After my friend
watched me do the flushing he repeated the process
several times. When that failed to work I tried a
magnesium rod. Finally, I went with a combo-alloy unit
(aluminum, zinc, tin). The combo-alloy rod seemed
to work for about a month. The last thing I could
think of was no rod. I simply screwed in a plug and
told my friend to call me in a few days with the results.
The news was not good.

I've dealt with the city water folks in several communities.
As long as the water is considered safe for drinking,
bathing, cooking, etc., they can do nothing to help.

A quart of hydrogen peroxide added to a 40 or 50 gallon
tank every two or three weeks would keep the gas
under control. It may not be the most elegant solution,
but it does the job and is not hazardous to human health.
I'm referring to the 3% solution you can buy in any WalMart.
Not the commercial concentrate!

Without a simple siphoning valve, the job is just not
worth doing. You have to shutoff the master cold
water valve and depressurize the system. Then you
have to remove the anode rod to add the peroxide. I
used unions on the cold inlet and hot outlet water
lines. You could unscrew one of the unions to add
the peroxide. What a nightmare!

With a siphoning valve you simply fill the container,
open any of the hot water valves in the house and
the peroxide would go right into the cold water inlet
and down the water heater's dip tube. You close
the siphoning and hot water valves and you're done.
The whole process might take five minutes.

If my house had a "smelly water" problem that would
not go away no matter what I tried, you can bet a
simple siphoning valve would be the solution for me.

I could spend hours searching for the right valve from
a big industrial supplier like Grainger. I was hoping one
of you guys could cut through the confusion and point
me in the right direction.
 
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Old 03-09-08, 04:23 PM
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I was going to suggest a Pennberthy XL-96 ejector but I wasn't sure it would work in a (more or less) closed system so I did a Google search.

Unfortunately it seems that Pennberthy is likely long out of business as I couldn't find any listing for Pennberthy and plumbing.

Next I was going to suggest that you might be able to make a siphon tee but the lack of a pressure drop across the inlet and outlet pretty much puts the kibosh on that.

How about a bypass feeder? Do a Google and you will find lots of them available. You could make one with a mess of fittings and valves.

If you want a few more suggestions then just ask.
 
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Old 03-09-08, 05:59 PM
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Could you use, in this order from the cold water pipe, a tee, short section, flapper type anti siphon valve installed against the flow, short section, ball valve, elbow, fittings to attach a 1 qt vessel. You could fill the vessel, and when you wanted it to load, just turn on the ball valve and the anti siphon valve will allow it to suck down without burping it back up. Just a thought.
 
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Old 03-10-08, 08:27 AM
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When I was a kid my dad worked for Schlumberger.
They owned chemical factories and research labs
that developed new chemicals.

Many times I would pretend to be "sick" and my dad
would take me to one of their factories or laboratories.
It was like visiting DisneyWorld! I remember seeing all
sorts of siphoning valves that carefully metered out
chemicals.

I have to admit that I'm a little confused by what you
guys are saying.

If you could buy a siphoning valve that did what a simple
garden sprayer does, why wouldn't that be ok? It would
be easy to test the idea. Cut a cheap 50 or 100 ft.
garden hose in half. Connect one half to the inlet of
the sprayer. Clamp or epoxy the other half to the
sprayer outlet. Connect the inlet hose to your garden
valve. Use a cheap garden hose ball valve and plug
the outlet end of the hose. Open the valve connected
to the inlet to pressurize the hose. Then open the
ball valve at the outlet end. Wouldn't the chemical in
the container attached to the siphoning valve be sucked
into the water stream?

The real problem is finding a rugged valve that would fit
standard 3/4" copper. Definitely not a common plumbing
component!
 
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Old 03-10-08, 05:53 PM
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Why not? A solid brass valve is a common plumbing component, and would be rugged enough for your application.
 
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Old 03-11-08, 12:10 AM
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In order for a venturi to work (and that is what a "siphoning valve" is) it must have a pressure differential across it and the discharge pressure needs to be lower than the supply pressure. This would be quite difficult in a domestic water heater installation.

There is a non-mechanical pump called an "injector" that can be used on a steam boiler but it utilizes the thermodynamic properties of steam and cannot be used in this situation.

The problem here is that while a serious restriction in the supply to the water heater could possibly be used in a nozzle/venturi arrangement to "drag" the solution to be added into the water stream feeding the heater tank it would also have serious negative effects in regard to the water flow out of the faucet. It would also require a check valve in the treatment solution suction line to prevent backflow into the treatment tank when there is no hot water being used in the house.

Since you are not asking for a continuous, yet minute, flow of treatment into the water heater the "bypass (or "pot") feeder" makes a great deal of sense.

If you want some suggestions of how to build a simple pot feeder, or if you want some suggestions in using a chemical pump type of feeder, just ask. I have quite a bit of experience with both.
 
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Old 03-20-08, 04:15 PM
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Sorry for the silent treatment guys. This problem was more
than I could handle. I suggested that my friend contact a
trade or vocational school. They usually have people who
can recommend someone who specializes in this sort of
problem.

I did download some info about bypass or pot feeders. This
lead me to think of one more idea for controlling the gas.

Make a small tank from 4" PVC and a couple of caps. Put
a tee and a "Y" valve inline with the cold water feed. Install
a tee and a valve in each cap. Clamp the tank to a board
and screw the board to a stud. Run flex connectors from
each valve in the caps to the "Y" valve.

When you want to add peroxide you close the "Y" valve
and use the two cap valves to depressurize and purge the
tank. When the tank is empty you fill it with peroxide
through the valve in the upper cap. Closing the upper
and lower cap valve and opening the "Y" valve will draw
the peroxide into the cold water feed.

There is no doubt this idea would work, but if you had
to go through this routine frequently it would become a
real chore.

Like most houses with a gas problem, the homeowners
are assaulted by the sulfide smell when they are showering.
When using the hot water at a sink, they occasionally
notice the odor. In other words, they could learn to live
with the problem if they could neutralize the gas when showering.

When I was a full-time HVAC contractor people would tell me
about different brands of shower filters. They all claimed to
remove sulfide gas. I can't remember how many times someone
would call about low water pressure and bad odors from a shower.
Replacing the cartrigde usually fixed the water pressure problem.
I never had a single positive report about a shower filter successfully
removing sulfide gas.

My friend had an interesting idea. There are many siphoning
valves with adjustable dials that allow you to meter out a certain
number of teaspoons, tablespoons, or ounces per gallon.

What if you constructed an enclosure above the shower head
large enough for a one or two gallon container and filled it
with 3% peroxide. With a little bit of tricky plumbing you meter
out a small amount of peroxide for each gallon of water before
it exits the shower head.

I have no idea if this instant mixing of peroxide and water would
neutralize the gas. I asked my dad, who spent many years in
the chemical industry. Even he didn't know! These are the kind
of unorthodox things you think about, when you've tried all
the conventional cures.

All I know is that peroxide or bleach will kill the anaerobic
bacteria in the heater tank that creates the gas. Would the
gas be neutralized if you metered out the peroxide into the
shower stream?
 
  #11  
Old 03-22-08, 12:36 AM
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It sure seems like you've been thorough in approaching this problem, which appears to be bacteria forming in the water heater.

Is treating the incoming water completely out of the question - even if you have to build a little shed for it?

I'm also wondering if a Rheem plastic water heater would have the same problem, or a tankless. Or, cranking the temp way up and installing a tempering valve?

Just some thoughts. Good luck with it.
 
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