Flange higher than tile. Cut or use wrench?


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Old 07-20-08, 10:20 AM
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Flange higher than tile. Cut or use wrench?

So I tore out the old old old tile, and thick mortar bed. installed a new subfloor and then tiled.

I go to install the toilet, and low and behold, mt flange is too high and the toilet will not sit flush.

The flange is cast iron, as you can see in the photos. Should I try an use a large wrench from the top and hope to unscrew the connections, or use a reciprocating saw or hack saw with cast iron blade from the bottom and attach PVC with the rubber connection thing???

My wife is gonna be pissed when she finds this out....





 

Last edited by the_tow_guy; 07-21-08 at 04:21 AM.
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Old 07-20-08, 01:01 PM
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Well my friend, Would you like the good or bad news first?

Did you say the good news?







Now, on to the bad news,
This is fixable (I guess that is the good news), But it is not going to be easy. (that,s the bad news)


The type of connection you have is a cast iron flange that is leaded in to seal it.
Before we go any further, we need to figure something out.
If you look into the drain, you should see the pipe in the center, A lead ring around that, then the outer flange material.
From the angle of the picture I cannot see if the pipe is lower than the floor level. If it is, you may be able to remove the old flange with a chisel (more on that later) and place a new flange on it at the appropriate height, using oakum and plastic lead or lead wool. No melting of lead.

Now if the pipe is the same height as the top of the flange, you are better off putting the old floor back on .
Seriously, you will need to cut the pipe from below to lower the height of the pipe. I cannot tell you how to do that without more picture of the piping under the floor.

If you are not sure about the question of the pipe height, try to get me more pics so I can see into the pipe and flange area.

After I see more pictures I can advise you better.

You can set this up temporarily if you do not have the time today and if this is your only toilet.
 

Last edited by plumbingods; 07-20-08 at 01:03 PM. Reason: Typo
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Old 07-20-08, 02:07 PM
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Thank you kind sir.

I have attached a few more pictures for you to take a look at. Please let me know if you need anything else.

From the top of the flange to where it joins the "t", it is 14 1/2", inside the pipe. From below the ceiling, the bottom of the flange (I presume) to the "t" is about 3 3/4".

to the left runs the drain, and to the right is the vent.

I cannot see any type of ring inside the pipe because of the buildup of.....stuff.

We do have another toilet in our house, it is just in the basement.


How could I set the toilet temporarily? I do not want it to crack, and I imagine that it would if I were to set it as it is.
If you would not recommend doing so however, I am prepared to wait to get it right.









 
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Old 07-20-08, 04:04 PM
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For temporary hook-up of the toiler, cut a few pieces of wood or something about 1/4" to 1/2" thick. Make one piece about 12" x 4" for the back of the toilet. Make another about 12" x 12" for the front. Ans maybe a couple small pieces for the sides and basically put a false floor over the tile to lift the toilet to safety until ready to make repairs.
 
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Old 07-20-08, 04:33 PM
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Honestly, there is no easy fix here, but I will tell you the easiest one I see so far.

From looking at the pictures, I am going to say the pipe is flush with the top of the pipe. IF you look at the pics of the flange, the inner brown circle is the pipe, The Grey section after that is lead and then we have the flange.

You will need a reciprocating saw (sawzall) and a couple good 6" blades designed for cast iron or metal. Unless you have access to a cast iron snapper, but without being there, I cannot be sure that would work.

You will need to cut the pipe in the basement about 1 1/2" - 2" above the hub of that joint. It will be a tight space. Then you can use some type of rubber conversion (Fernco, mission, no-hub) coupling to change it to PVC. Then get a new PVC flange, sized accordingly and connect to the other side of the rubber connector. You may need a piece or pipe to accomplish this.

Make sure you fine a way to anchor the flange to the floor before setting the toilet or it will be able to move because of the rubber clamp.
 
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Old 07-20-08, 05:50 PM
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and on a side note, hopefully you didn't tile directly onto the wooden subfloor either.....
 
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Old 07-20-08, 06:06 PM
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What do you mean by that Hot?
 
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Old 07-20-08, 06:45 PM
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Because most people do not know the proper ANSI spec for doing so, and it's hard to achieve.

I couldn't tell you how many times people have had failed installations because it was installed over plywood without a backerboard or similar, or they didn't do a deflection calculation. There are some instances where it might last, but why take the chance, eh?

ANSI A108.12- AN-2 General Requirements for Subsurfaces:
AN-2.5.3.2.1, AN-2.6.3.3, AN-2.6.4.4, AN-3.4 Wood Subfloors:
AN-3.4.1.1, AN-3.4.1.2, AN-3.4.1.3, AN-3.4.1.4
TCA Floors, Interiors (Wood Subfloors) F141, F142, F144,
NTCA Reference Manual (Installation of Tile Over Plywood)
D-5, D-6, D-7.
 
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Old 07-20-08, 07:28 PM
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OK, Gottcha now.

I thought you were talking about the plumbing, not the tile.
 
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Old 07-21-08, 06:36 AM
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Originally Posted by HotinOKC
and on a side note, hopefully you didn't tile directly onto the wooden subfloor either.....
No. I put down hardibacker on top of the plywood. I thought that I had raised the floor height enough, but apparently I did not. The original tile was set into a very thick mortar bed.


I am trying to decide the whether or not to cut the pipe myself, or hire a professional to do it for me. Any idea what a plumber would charge to cut the pipe and and install a new drain flange.
 
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Old 07-21-08, 11:54 AM
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Depends on where you live I guess.

In New Hampshire, the larger companies are charging anyplace from $100.00 to $200.00 per hour.

Little guys like myself are getting about $70.00 per hour.

It will most likely take between 1 and 2 hrs to cut and set the toilet, including travel time, figuring out the best way to cut the pipe, etc.

The plumber may come in and find an easy fix that I cannot see here. You will also want to remove all that galvanized piping as soon as possible.
 
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Old 07-21-08, 05:52 PM
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I've never done it, and I can't vouch for code compliance... but...

Would it be possible/desirable to basically shim the toilet up the extra 1/4" or so so it sits level? Maybe by using some 1/4" or 3/8" cement board cut to the shape of the toilet? I know you do want to support the entire toilet so it doesn't crack... and you want to use something that won't rot, thus the idea of cement board.

Once it's down, the edge around it would be caulked anyway.

Thoughts?
 
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Old 07-21-08, 05:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Zorfdt
I've never done it, and I can't vouch for code compliance... but...

Would it be possible/desirable to basically shim the toilet up the extra 1/4" or so so it sits level? Maybe by using some 1/4" or 3/8" cement board cut to the shape of the toilet? I know you do want to support the entire toilet so it doesn't crack... and you want to use something that won't rot, thus the idea of cement board.

Once it's down, the edge around it would be caulked anyway.

Thoughts?
I thought about that, but honestly that will be my last resort. I have spent enough time and money as it is, and want it to look right. I spoke with a plumber that is local, and he is going to try and stop by some time this week and take a look at it. I just emailed him the pictures as well, so I'll have to wait and see what he says.

Thanks for all the advice though.
 
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Old 07-21-08, 06:41 PM
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I think you have the right idea. Set up the toilet temporarily and wait for a plumber to look at it and advise.
 
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Old 07-21-08, 06:51 PM
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Is that your old toilet that sat on that flange?
If not, check that the dia. of your flange is not larger than the toilet will accept.
Also--with a block of wood & a hammer--have you tapped on the flange to see if it will lower farther into the hub (where it is leaded?
Just a thought..................
 
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Old 07-24-08, 03:15 PM
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Okay, so I tried to set the toilet again tonight and relized something. In order for the drain hole of the toilet to line up properly with the drain in the floor, I had to remove the closet bolts.....and then it fit! Sits perfectly.

It turns out, that the closet bolts do not correctly line up with the holes in the toilet, to also allow the two drain holes to line up correctly, so by removing the bolts, everything sits flush.

Now I just have to figure our how to get new bolts into the flange in a position that will allow the toilet to be screwed down....
 
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Old 07-24-08, 04:02 PM
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Set toilet where you want it-pound on a nail or punch thru
toilet bolt holes-remove toilet-if you are on wood-use lag screws--if steel-drill & tap for a new bolt size.
Your flange looked ok to me-now we know the problem.......
Was it a new toilet?
 
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Old 07-24-08, 04:14 PM
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Yeah. Brand new Kohler Devonshire toilet.

I kept measuring the height of the flange, the depth under the toilet, the width of the flange, everything and couldn't figure out why on earth it would not sit right. Everything looked right, so I am glad that the solution was alot simpler than I previously thought!!
 
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Old 07-24-08, 04:19 PM
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I am sorry, I did not notice the bolts not being centered. I can see that in this picture.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3...g?t=1216587940

The only problem I see is where you will get a good hook-up to place the bolts to hold the toilet.
 

Last edited by plumbingods; 07-24-08 at 04:34 PM.
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Old 07-24-08, 04:32 PM
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One other point brought up HotinOKC--
If you feel any deflection in your floor--better jamb 2X4's
at clg, under toilet & nail to beams.
It looks a little shakey from your photos...............
 
 

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