Can I vent from the stack?

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Old 08-08-11, 09:33 AM
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Can I vent from the stack?

Planning a basement renovation and intend to move both the powder room and the washer/dryer to new locations and have a question about venting.

Main stack is located about center on the back wall of the basement. Powder room will be located along the same wall in the corner with the right hand wall, w/d will be located on the other end of the right hand wall near the front.

Rather than run a whole new vent stack from the right front of the house, I'm wondering if I can tap into the existing stack for my vent? And if I can - what kind of connector should I use? I'm thinking I should use an angled connector oriented downward (like |/ not |\ )
 
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Old 08-08-11, 10:27 AM
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Also, provided proper rise/run on the drain lines - how far can I run a drain line off of, say, the washing machine? I'm looking at around 35'-40' between stack and where I'd like the washer to be.
 
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Old 08-08-11, 10:32 AM
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You cant tie into that stack if any fixtures upstairs drain into it. That is wet venting and is not to code. You must tie the vent in above the flood plane of the higest fixture on that stack or run a independant vent.

You can tie the drain to there, but again not the vent.

Mike NJ
 
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Old 08-08-11, 10:36 AM
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Originally Posted by lawrosa View Post
You cant tie into that stack if any fixtures upstairs drain into it. That is wet venting and is not to code. You must tie the vent in above the flood plane of the higest fixture on that stack or run a independant vent.

You can tie the drain to there, but again not the vent.

Mike NJ
Ok, the more I think about it, it makes sense - even if I used a wye, drainage from, say, the washer could create suction which would potentially pull waste into the vent line...

Follow up question - since I have to run a new vent, does said vent have to go all the way out to the roof, or can the vent come out of the side of the house, say from about the 1st floor?
 
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Old 08-08-11, 10:59 AM
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I would like to ask how is the bath vented now??????

Possibly its not to code as it stands.

If your moving a powder room dont you have to jack hammer to install the waste lines in the floor?


Options.



1. Vent all the way through the roof.
2. Run the vent up to the attic and tie into the stack there. That will be well above the highest fixture.
3. Possibly check your local codes. A studor vent may be allowed. I do not endorse them at all, and only in must have applications. But some towns allow them. Under no circumstances should studor vents be enclosed and not accesible.

And I always get flack from people here when I tell them proper venting codes. They kind of get mad. They will try to find any and everyway around it. All I can say is do what you want but I will only offer proper and legal plumbing code advice at all times as best of my knowledge.

Believe me, I know its had to run a vent from a basement. You need to remove sheet rock, run up in closets, etc... I would say whatever needs to be done do it.

Mike NJ
 
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Old 08-08-11, 11:33 AM
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Originally Posted by lawrosa View Post
I would like to ask how is the bath vented now??????

Possibly its not to code as it stands.
I'm almost certain it wasn't but I haven't opened the floor yet to be sure.

If your moving a powder room dont you have to jack hammer to install the waste lines in the floor?
Hoo rah.

Options.
snipped for brevity
I'm fine w/ going to the roof (see below) but I was also reading that in some states as long as you're clear of any intakes/windows/doors you don't have to go to the roof. I have an entire wall that's got no windows/doors so I had thought about venting halfway up the house but... just feels lazy...

Believe me, I know its had to run a vent from a basement. You need to remove sheet rock, run up in closets, etc... I would say whatever needs to be done do it.
I'm opening the entire basement and its my opportunity to rewire, redo plumbing, even fix ductwork - so I'm opening a LOT more in the house at the same time. One more hole won't hurt and the whole reason for this reno is to properly fix a lot of crap the previous owner did.
 
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Old 08-08-11, 11:38 AM
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Mike is a pro and I certainly am not, and I don't know about your home but I was wondering whether you had a laundry tub in the basement you could run your vent connection to at the correct height on that fixture vent pipe. I was allowed to do that when I added a basement bath.
 
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Old 08-08-11, 11:40 AM
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The vent should not be in the floor. The vent for the powder room should come from the tee behind the sink in the powder room.

The drain is seperate from vents. Just in your first sentence below you stated:

"I'm almost certain it wasn't but I haven't opened the floor yet to be sure"

Just making sure you know what your looking at and we are talking the same languge in regards to plumbing.

And as Equinox states you may have a vent there or you may not. I dont know...

Pics are always helpful.

Mike NJ
 
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Old 08-08-11, 11:57 AM
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Originally Posted by lawrosa View Post
The vent should not be in the floor. The vent for the powder room should come from the tee behind the sink in the powder room.
Yeah, I know that, you know that, but the previous homeowner... well, to give you a clue about what *HE* knew, have a look at this:



Yes, that's a door. In fact, it's the exterior door from the basement. It vented to here:


The drain is seperate from vents. Just in your first sentence below you stated:

"I'm almost certain it wasn't but I haven't opened the floor yet to be sure"

Just making sure you know what your looking at and we are talking the same languge in regards to plumbing.
We're on the same page. I just don't trust the prev h/o to have been blessed with a brain.

Here is a pic of the wet wall that exists now. It's the only pic I have of the old drains since as I don't intend to keep them I didn't focus on them.


I'm reaching the conclusion that a new vent stack is the way to go. I actually have plans to open up the central walls in the house to update HVAC anyway, so running the vent in the same wall won't be a problem, I think.

Well, for me... My wife has other thoughts...
 
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Old 08-08-11, 12:00 PM
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Originally Posted by equinox View Post
Mike is a pro and I certainly am not, and I don't know about your home but I was wondering whether you had a laundry tub in the basement you could run your vent connection to at the correct height on that fixture vent pipe. I was allowed to do that when I added a basement bath.
Good thought! I do have a utility sink down there - but it's right next to the stack, literally, and I'm almost 100% certain that it isn't vented. (no pics on file yet)
 
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Old 08-08-11, 12:58 PM
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Looking at your pics, once the bath is relocated and tied into the drain pipes properly, the vent only need to be 1 1/2".

That dryer vent is not to code. Should be rigid metel with a smooth interior. That is a plastic accordian style with a false metal looking plastic layer. Burns easy for good dryer vent fires....

Just sayin'....

If you need help get all the pics together. People here can guide you as you go along. Plumbers are alot of $$$$.

Mike NJ
 
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Old 08-08-11, 01:07 PM
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Originally Posted by lawrosa View Post
Looking at your pics, once the bath is relocated and tied into the drain pipes properly, the vent only need to be 1 1/2".

That dryer vent is not to code. Should be rigid metel with a smooth interior. That is a plastic accordian style with a false metal looking plastic layer. Burns easy for good dryer vent fires....

Just sayin'....

If you need help get all the pics together. People here can guide you as you go along. Plumbers are alot of $$$$.

Mike NJ
I'll be hollaring.

Picasa Web Albums - Greebo Pasta <-- Full library of pics so far. The plans have changed some so don't pay too much attention to the ones posted.

This is a LONG term project for us.
 
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Old 08-08-11, 01:12 PM
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Originally Posted by lawrosa View Post
That dryer vent is not to code. Should be rigid metel with a smooth interior. That is a plastic accordian style with a false metal looking plastic layer. Burns easy for good dryer vent fires....
BTW...

DUDE, the dryer vents THROUGH A DOOR!

Being up to code was the LAST thing on the idiots mind.
 
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Old 08-08-11, 01:25 PM
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Hey at least its venting to the outside...LOL. Thats just one of those "wall doors".

Mike NJ
 
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Old 08-10-11, 05:39 AM
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I think I've found a solution w/o running a new stack. Someone already did it for me!

Here's the top of the main stack:

The left most pipe comes from the kitchen. The one to the right of it just by the copper goes to the 1st floor bathtub (and JUST the tub).

But - and here's my hope - THIS T's off of the 1st floor bath:

"This" means the horizontal drain pipe running under the joists and elbowing up near the furnace.

Years back this house was converted into two apartments. Later, it was converted back to SFR. The stack rising in this pic goes up to the 2nd floor to what *used* to be a kitchen at one time, and I know it goes up to the roof because I gutted that room a few years back and found this pipe, properly capped it (it had been stuffed w/ a rag) and closed it up again.

So now I can see no reason why I can't tap into this pipe for my new venting. I know it joins into the bathtub drain below the tubs drain, but if I'm understanding this correctly, this *is* the bathtub's vent as well as the old kitchen vent. I can't see any problem with tapping into the old kitchen vent here, even though the tub is technically higher than the point at which I'd tap, because I'd be tapping in on a different branch, like so:


That will work ok, right?
 
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Old 08-10-11, 06:24 AM
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Hi,

Well I have to get the code book out because I cant remember the footage. But first things first.

I was under the impression this bath was in the basement that you wanted to move.

But anyway, is that pipe 3"?
Its capped in a wall on the second floor?
If so you can and will run it through the roof?
Is it 3" all the way up? If not I believe it needs to be but I will check.
All the fixtures have to be I believe 6 ft from that line. If any longer you need a vent.


********************************

You know what after looking at it again thats the tub vent. I am almost certain it cannot be done. It may of been ok if the main stack went straight up to the roof ( first pic 4" pvc) But it does not.
And for the tubs sake you should continue that vent. I would suspent the tub trap is being siphoned. ( Gurggling sounds )

If you can draw a better diagram of all the plumbing you can see and whats on the lines possibly there is a solution. I would need a overall of all wastlines, etc...


Mike NJ
 
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Old 08-10-11, 07:40 AM
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Originally Posted by lawrosa View Post
Hi,

Well I have to get the code book out because I cant remember the footage. But first things first.

I was under the impression this bath was in the basement that you wanted to move.
Correct - I want to move the bath and washer.

But anyway, is that pipe 3"?
Its capped in a wall on the second floor?
If so you can and will run it through the roof?
Is it 3" all the way up? If not I believe it needs to be but I will check.
All the fixtures have to be I believe 6 ft from that line. If any longer you need a vent.
In order:
Yes, 3"
No, it's got a T on floor 2, and the branch off the T is capped.
It already runs all the way to the roof.
Yes, 3" all the way up.
And finally:
Why do fixtures need to be within 6'? If I ran a vent from the roof straight down, fixtures would be 20' from the end vent anyway - what's up with the 6'?

You know what after looking at it again thats the tub vent. I am almost certain it cannot be done. It may of been ok if the main stack went straight up to the roof ( first pic 4" pvc) But it does not.
It is acting as the tub vent, yes, but it goes to the roof, so why can't it also be the bath and washer vent?

And for the tubs sake you should continue that vent. I would suspent the tub trap is being siphoned. ( Gurggling sounds )
No, the tub drains fine.

If you can draw a better diagram of all the plumbing you can see and whats on the lines possibly there is a solution. I would need a overall of all wastlines, etc...
On *that* branch, the diagram I drew is it. The branch drains into the main stack.
 
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Old 08-10-11, 09:14 AM
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Why do fixtures need to be within 6'? If I ran a vent from the roof straight down, fixtures would be 20' from the end vent anyway - what's up with the 6'?

If you took a 1 bath house and had only one 3" main/stack from the ground level up through the roof that bath can be tied in with no additional vents. Once you get so far( I need to check code) say 20 ft away from the stack, a additional 1 1/2 vent needs to be run from that bath and tied into the stack up in the attic. There is a set limit. 6ft,8ft,10ft??? Goes by pipe size and the fixture units. A toilet is 3 units, a sink 1.5, a tub 5 units. You can only vent so many units on a 3" stack befor you need to run a seperate 1 1/2 vent though the roof seperate from the stack.

I know it sound complicated.

It is acting as the tub vent, yes, but it goes to the roof, so why can't it also be the bath and washer vent?

Because its considered a wet vent. Wet venting is not to code.

But I believe, and I may be wrong, if that main 4" stack in pic #1 did not elbow and the stack continued up through the roof, that stack would act as the vent for the tub.

But then you would Need to disconnect the "VENT and TO NEW DRAINS" as in pic #3 and take it off the tub and connect it to the 4" ( looks 4" may be 6" )stack anywhere below that elbow.

You see then what you are doing is removeing the tub vent and using it for your bath. But the tub cant use the stack as a vent because it does not continue up through the roof. It has an ell and connects to other fixtures like a toilet I believe I see with a big rubber "fernco". ( Thats not code needs a no hub)


No, the tub drains fine.
Yes you stated that the vent continues through the roof. I thought it was just capped. Its OK

Sorry but it is what it is. Like I said if you draw all the plumbing as best you can I may be able to figure something out.

And dont get mad a me. You can do what you want. No one will know but you. I am just telling you what is code and what isn't. You may have a slew of venting issues where sewer gas will leak out siphoned traps. Sewer gas can lead to sickness and sometimes death.

I only follow the law and will never suggest doing anything not to code. Although you may be grandfathered in on alot of things, it does not mean they are correct.

Indoor Air -- Sewer Gas

Mike NJ
 
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Old 08-10-11, 09:20 AM
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Mike, I'm not upset with you at all - I'm only trying to understand. I'm not interested in doing this the wrong way and I appreciate you taking all the time you have so far.

I will put together a clearer diagram of the plumbing - although it won't be to scale, I'll make a guess at the measurements and such.

I will check the house tonight so I can get it as accurate as possible.
 
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Old 08-10-11, 09:22 AM
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I have an idea.

Is that basement where the bath is? The basement or first floor your calling it is where that boiler is and bath is?

Take a pic of pic #1 but at floor level. I want to see how that main goes into the floor.

And you said your jackhammering? Where and what location are you tieing in that bath to the main sewer?

Mike NJ



Let me know.
 
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Old 08-10-11, 09:34 AM
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Basement and two floors (1 and 2)

There is only a powder room and the washer in basement, and it's those that I wish to move, which will require jack-hammering for the toilet drain, I know. Since I'm disconnecting the old toilet location I expect we'll re-use the below-ground tie-in.

Floors 1 and 2 both have full baths. Floor 1 has a kitchen. Floor 2 USED to have a kitchen which is now gone.

If you look at pic 1, (reproduced for your convenience)


the kitchen comes in on the left hand pip and it joins the main stack nearer the bottom. Both main baths ultimately drain into the main stack EXCEPT the 1st floor tub (a late addition I think).

The 1st floor tub drains into the 3rd stack - the galvanized to PVC 3" that's beside the two copper feeds. That stack branches off at the level where the main stack has the elbow so this pic doesn't show it, and that branch goes off by the furnace and leads up to what was the kitchen and onwards up to the roof.

Again, tonight I will go through the house and try to figure out a more complete and accurate pipe diagram. However, I haven't opened up all the walls before so I'll be guessing at how some of the venting is done, but none of my drains gurgle and all drain smoothly so I'm sure they are all vented, just not sure exactly how.
 
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Old 08-10-11, 09:48 AM
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In the interrim, this is done from memory and is my best guess as to the existing layout. It is the bottom layer sink, toilet and washer that I wish to relocate, and would like to use the smaller stack which shoots off from the 1st tub, if possible.

 
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Old 08-10-11, 09:53 AM
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OK in your second pic I see a tee on that 3" vent your talking about, correct? On one end I would assume is a clean out cap?

1. Are you able to fish a 1 1/2 line next to that 3" line and tie it in either 3 ft above the first floor tub or tie it in anywhere else above that?????

( This would be your best bet and there is your vent for the powder room and laundry. But know you need to plumb correctly at ground level.)

2. If you where to remove that tee and put a Y there and keep the shower vent tied in but continue that #" line down into the floor. No vent needed but the fixtures need to with in the footage 6,8,10ft??? for no additonal venting. The stack will act as the vent.

I hope you understand what I am saying.

Mike NJ
 
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Old 08-10-11, 10:05 AM
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Originally Posted by lawrosa View Post
OK in your second pic I see a tee on that 3" vent your talking about, correct? On one end I would assume is a clean out cap?
You mean up on the 2nd floor? That's not really accessible anymore w/o opening the wall. I put a cap on it when I gutted that room, but I closed it in after.

1. Are you able to fish a 1 1/2 line next to that 3" line and tie it in either 3 ft above the first floor tub or tie it in anywhere else above that?????
( This would be your best bet and there is your vent for the powder room and laundry. But know you need to plumb correctly at ground level.)
Yes, I can do that. That runs through our living room wall and I can easily open that up to tap in.

2. If you where to remove that tee and put a Y there and keep the shower vent tied in but continue that #" line down into the floor. No vent needed but the fixtures need to with in the footage 6,8,10ft??? for no additonal venting. The stack will act as the vent.

I hope you understand what I am saying.
Here you have lost me. Which Tee are you talking about? the one in the basement? I think it likely won't matter because the new location will be at least 6' away from that branch - and the washer more like 30'...

So if I tie into that 3" tub/old kitchen line about halfway up the 1st floor, I can run that as long as I want to be my new vents for the new basement toilet sink and washer, am I understanding that correctly?
 
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Old 08-10-11, 10:13 AM
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OK here is what you need to do to make it work.

Light green vent, dark green sewer under ground. except small sink and washer run into floor. Washer can run along the wall untill you get to where you need but must have continous pitch. 1/4" per ft.

Note: Were the sink and washer hook into the toilet Y, that Y cant be more then I believe 6'8'10 ft from the toilet. Cant recall but keep it close.

And get rid of that little nub on the second floor so no one ever hooks to it.




Mike NJ
 
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Old 08-10-11, 10:23 AM
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Okay I see what you're saying - only the diagram is the "now". Remodel will rearrange sink and toilet and washer locations. Sink and toilet will be w/in 10 feet of the stack - washer will be more like way over on the opposite wall.

But ... based on what you drew, will this work as well?


Er, make that a wye tie in from the washer to the stack, of course.
 
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Old 08-10-11, 10:55 AM
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Yes that looks good to me.

Just hook up the toilet and sink how I show in the pic. From the toilet to the main is 3". The arm coming off is 2". So it would be a 3x2 Y there. Then all light green vent is 1 1/2".

The washer drain 2" vent 1 1/2

And yes use a Y at the washer vent connection. You dont have to run the vant all the way to the washer but needs to be withing 10ft I believe.

Good job...

Oh and I see your other post on your electric. I have a 1950 cape and replaced all new wireing and 200 amp service. Quote was around the $4000 mark for panal and all new wiring fished in the walls. Had a friend do it for cost of materials and several cases of beer. ( Of course drank the beer when we were done for the day)

He ran dedicated circuits to certain areas like washer/dryer, microwave, highhats, etc...

Mike NJ

Mike NJ
 
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Old 08-10-11, 10:59 AM
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Originally Posted by lawrosa View Post
Yes that looks good to me.

Just hook up the toilet and sink how I show in the pic. From the toilet to the main is 3". The arm coming off is 2". So it would be a 3x2 Y there. Then all light green is 1 1/2".
Copy that Ghost Rider! Thanks!

And yes use a Y at the washer vent connection. You dont have to run the vant all the way to the washer but needs to be withing 10ft I believe.
Good to know

Oh and I see your other post on your electric. I have a 1950 cape and replaced all new wireing and 200 amp service. Quote was around the $4000 mark for panal and all new wiring fished in the walls. Had a friend do it for cost of materials and several cases of beer. ( Of course drank the beer when we were done for the day)
You're in Jersey. I'm in Baltimore - don't suppose he wants a job down here?
 
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Old 08-10-11, 11:06 AM
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You're in Jersey. I'm in Baltimore - don't suppose he wants a job down here
?

Do you have beer?????? LOL.

Probably not. Its not cost effective to travel today unless your profit is high. Electricians are slow everywhere. I think you can get a good deal if you find the right guy.

Mike NJ
 
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Old 08-10-11, 11:13 AM
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Originally Posted by lawrosa View Post
?

Do you have beer?????? LOL.
What the hell kind of question is that??? NOW I'm MAD!

j/k LOL

Probably not. Its not cost effective to travel today unless your profit is high. Electricians are slow everywhere. I think you can get a good deal if you find the right guy.
Well I'll have to hope so anyway.

Thanks again, so very much, for all the help!
 
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Old 08-10-11, 12:54 PM
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Just another note:

Since that vent was use as a drain I would replace from roof to basment with PVC. Or make sure its clear. Snake it if you need. Its iron pipe and gets corroded inside.

Also connect pvc to iron with no hub fittings of you opt not to replace.

Mike NJ
 
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Old 08-10-11, 12:58 PM
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You are just bound and determined to make me get up on that roof, aren't you!
 
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Old 08-10-11, 01:04 PM
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In the picture the roof dont look that high!!!!!!! C'mon!!!! LOL.....

Just leave the tallboys alone until your done.... You know what a tallboy is right???? If you dont you have no business being a DIY'er....LOL.



Mike NJ
 
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Old 08-10-11, 01:06 PM
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Originally Posted by lawrosa View Post
In the picture the roof dont look that high!!!!!!! C'mon!!!! LOL.....

Just leave the tallboys alone until your done.... You know what a tallboy is right???? If you dont you have no business being a DIY'er....LOL.

Mike NJ
SACRILEGE!

Everyone knows the best DIY projects are done by people who keep themselves PROPERLY hydrated, and nothing hydrates like BEER!

Honestly, I'm starting to question your professionalism here...

 
  #35  
Old 08-10-11, 01:08 PM
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Wait I added a pic...............Tall boy comeback...LOL

OK way off topic...

Mike NJ
 
  #36  
Old 08-10-11, 01:11 PM
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Hey... you know? If I drank enough tallboys, I could attach them to each other and make a nice 1'1/2" stack out of them...

I'd get on "There I fixed it" for SURE then!
 
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