Hot water recirculating - hot water delivering pumps

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Old 09-30-11, 05:20 PM
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Hot water recirculating - hot water delivering pumps

I have considered using a return line to get me a somewhat "instant" hot water, but considering my skill level and especially level of my luck , decided against it.

As I understand there is two different types of recirculation systems.
a. point of furthest service
b. at the WH

I'd love to use something like this :
Amazon.com: Wilo 4118271 Star Z-15 B57 Single Speed Circulating Pump, 115-Volt: Home Improvement
at the point of service, my kitchen. But, will it deliver same results (hot water) to my second story shower? The reason I am questioning this, because these two points of service branch out (or at least I think they are, it's all inside the slab, so there is no way to be sure) about 10' away from my water heater.
Will the Grundfos system like this:
Grundfos Instant Hot Water Comfort Series Pump System | eBay
be more appropriate for my (and probably majority of others) installation?
The problem is, most people complain that water they get at the faucet is lukewarm, not hot. Is this "working as designed" problem, or some are just working better then the other systems?

Thank you in advance!
 
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Old 09-30-11, 05:53 PM
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The grundfos works fine. If people are having issues either the timer is set incorrectly or the check valve is faulty. The check valve is thermostatic and they do fail.

Install the pump and the check valve at the farthest sink. It should take care of other fixtures on that branch. If not buy additional check valves.

Watts makes them also. You can get them at the home store or right from watts.

Costco - Watts Premier Hot Water Recirculation Pump

https://www.wattspremier.com/product...ulating-System

Additional check valves here. Costco used to sell them but stopped for some reason.

Get right from watts.

https://www.wattspremier.com/product...ulating-System

I always installed the grundfos but the watts looks like the same thing. They work very well IMO. You need to secure the check valve to the inside of the vanity and make sure its level. There is also a test in the instructions to test the check valves function if you think it has failed.

Mike NJ
 
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Old 10-01-11, 07:26 PM
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Thanks Mike,
the Costco deal looks attractive, mostly because of the return policy.

I am still a little confused as far as the installation goes, most likely because of the lack of understanding on my part as how it suppose to work.
Right from Costco website - "The pump installs easily to the hot water line on top of the water heater. Sensor valve installs easily under the sink that takes the longest to receive hot water."
I do have two branches of about the equal length, so it looks like I will need a second valve, but can decide later if I really need it. The space under the sink (kitchen) is pretty crowded already (i have an RO from the same Watts) and I will have issues cramming another item like pump in there. The sink in the upstairs bathroom has plenty or room, but will require additional outlet (GFCI) to be installed under the sink.
Is there a reason you recommend installing it at the end of the branch rather than at the WH? I just have a hard time understanding how the water in the second branch will get hot water circulated even it has additional check valve.
 
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Old 10-01-11, 08:37 PM
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Yeah I meant install the pump.... ( Period ) Yhe pump gets installed at the water heater on the hot side. Pump is directional and has an arrow.

The check valve goes under the sink.

I installed at my parents house. The master bath is on the one side of the house the hwh on the other. It literally took 3 minutes for the hw to get to the sink.

I installed this for them. I left the pump on all the time because thier water use is sporatic. ( Did not set the timer) It normally would pick up the kitchen and other bath if the lines were on the same hw trunk line. But because its a slab house the hw lines are run individually to each bath group.

Some houses you are able to put the checkvalve in a position that other fixtures can benifit also.

.2 amps so not a big electric user.

Mike NJ
 
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Old 10-01-11, 09:56 PM
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Thanks again,
That's what I suspected you meant.
At this point my biggest concern is the water temperature at the kitchen sink because the dishwasher refuses to wash well, unless the water coming in, is hot. It's kind of silly to expect everyone to remember to run the hot water until it's actually hot. Especially that I sometimes forget to run it myself
Considering how long does it take to get the hot water in the upstairs shower, that should be a concern as well. Again, I can always buy additional valve after I install the pimp.
Thanks!
 
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Old 10-02-11, 06:15 AM
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At this point my biggest concern is the water temperature at the kitchen sink because the dishwasher refuses to wash well, unless the water coming in, is hot
Most washers have a setting that heats the water. Since I only keep my water at 120F anyway its not hot enough to clean well. 140F is the prefered temp. But with young children no way is the water going to be 140F.

So check your washer for a water heating setting.

Mike NJ
 
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Old 10-02-11, 07:36 AM
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Yea, I know.
I went through this awhile ago playing with settings of the dishwasher. The one I am using (Bosch) is set to heat up the water, but I guess it's not heating it based on the resulting water temperature but on the preset time. Otherwise it would not care what water temperature I am feeding it, I assume. So I am either forced to raze the hot water temp at the WH (which is a waste especially if I am going to keep recirculating it, even that it is on timer) or somehow figure out the way to prolong the dishwasher's heating element operation, that is again a waste (now electricity, but still) and most likely will shorten it's lifespan. Basically - you can't win
Thanks,
 
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Old 10-02-11, 08:04 AM
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Well I dont know. The temps are preset I believe for 140F. If I turn mine off the washer completes a cycle in record time. If I turn this feature on the washer takes double the time it seems. There is a light that comes on the front of mine that says " Heating Delay". When thats on I know the DW is heating the water. I try to help it along by running HW to the kitchen sink before I turn on the DW.

The electric it uses is worth having sanitized dishes.

Mike NJ
 
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Old 10-05-11, 08:36 AM
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Last year I installed a Grundfos circulating pump (with timer) as part of another project. Fortunately my basement joists are exposed so I replaced the old copper pipe (with failing lead solder joints) with pex. I ended up with a 3/4" pex loop that leaves the top of the hot water tank and returns at the fill connection at the bottom. The pump is installed on the the return side. "T's" off of the 3/4" loop provide for 1/2" feeds to the fixtures with no feed being longer than 3-4 feet. The hot water loop is insulated and the pump runs from 5 to 9 in the morning and 4 to 10 in the evening. The wait for hot water is about a second (rather than the minute or 2 before the change). Water consumption is down with no noticeable change in gas or electrical consumption. This has to be one of the most gratifying home improvement projects since I appreciate it every time I turn on the hot water.

I would avoid many of the products that have great claims and push the easy installation feature. I went through all of them and came up with a more labor intensive approach that is simple and will last a long time.

Good luck.
 
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Old 10-05-11, 03:49 PM
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Thanks,
I am wondering at what temperature (if you measured) does the valve opens up and at what it closes?
It seems they all use the same valve, how it's reliable.
 
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Old 10-05-11, 04:12 PM
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As the temperature in the hot water line hits 98 the valve closes.

Watch the video also.

Instant Hot Water Recirculating System - New Products - Watts

Here are the instructions. The Grunfos is the same.

http://media.wattswater.com/IS-IHWRS.pdf

Mike NJ
 
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Old 10-05-11, 05:26 PM
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Does the pump run continuous?
 
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Old 10-05-11, 06:38 PM
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Does the pump run continuous?
Has a timer on the face of the pump. You can set the switch to timer, continuous on, or off.

I like them. For $199 you cant beat it.

.2 amps to run. Cost about $2 a month if you get charged .15 cents a kW and leave it on continuously.

Mike NJ
 
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Old 10-05-11, 06:42 PM
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I'm not crazy about the idea of having it run continuous instead of coming on when needed. Seems like it would be easy enough to set up like that.
 
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Old 10-06-11, 09:03 AM
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I forgot to mention that the Grundfos unit I have installed has an adjustable thermostat on it. It senses the temperature of the returning (cool) water in the loop and turns the pump on when it drops below the set temp. This is in addition to the preset timer. The pump has a light on it that is on when running and from casual observation I think it only runs about a half hour in the evening when the timer is set to have it on from 4 to 10 PM. Here is a link to the model pump I have installed.

http://www.amazon.com/Grundfos-96433899-Horsepower-Comfort-Recirculating/dp/B0018LD2SC/ref=sr_1_11?ie=UTF8&qid=1317916843&sr=8-11[/URL]
 
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Old 10-07-11, 08:49 PM
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Thanks again,
I think adjustable feature is an option worth paying 20-30 bucks.
Is this the valve you used in addition to above pump?
Amazon.com: Grundfos 595926 Replacement Comfort Valve for UP Circulator Pumps: Home Improvement

Thanks,
 
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Old 10-07-11, 09:20 PM
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Is this the valve you used in addition to above pump?
No, he installed a hot water loop and has a different type of system. That valve you linked to has a built in thermostat. That is the valve that comes with the watts, or grunfos. They are the same exact pumps.

He has a different pump, and may have did a loop because these systems may have not been out at the time.


Mike NJ
 
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Old 10-07-11, 10:25 PM
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OK,
thanks,
So do I need to buy that valve in addition to that "other" pump or it should come as a kit like Watts does?
I am getting more and more confused with systems, loops etc.
My goal is (and I know it's a lot to ask)
a) hot water at all faucets, if not instant, within seconds
b) system that has only one pump, so I don't need to replicate at every branch of my house
c) if the system involves the valve (and it looks like most do), I want to be able to adjust the temperature on the valve

I also assume that need for a check valve was prompted by that loop, but if not please let me know if I need that as well.
Does this pump have a thermostat?
http://www.amazon.com/Grundfos-96433899-Horsepower-Comfort-Recirculating/dp/B0018LD2SC/ref=sr_1_11?ie=UTF8&qid=1317916843&sr=8-11[/URL]

This is the Watts I thought we were talking about:
Amazon.com: Watts 500800 Premier Hot Water Recirculation Pump, Blue: Home Improvement

and they sure don't look the same. Am I missing something? A lot? Everything?
Thanks for all your help!
 
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Old 10-07-11, 10:55 PM
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Yes you are missing something.

This is the grunfos pump.

Grundfos USA

You see its the same exact thing as the watts.

Unless you are going to do a repipe and install a loop ignore the posts from davej regarding the recirc with loop.

One of these two pumps come with one check valve. The watts or the one above from the link.

Its one pump and one check valve. You install the check valve at the farthest fixture. You will have hot water everywhere near that fixture instantly.

If you happened to have another bath on the other side of the home, then you would just buy an additional check valve for that bathroom group.

Understand? The other poster was just confusing things a bit for you. That circ he posted is used with a hotwater loop.

Also there is no need to set the temp. The water will be as hot as you have the HWH set for. The only thing these pumps are doing is allowing no wait for hot water at the faucet. Turn on the faucet, or shower, and hot water will be there.

Mike NJ
 
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Old 10-08-11, 08:01 AM
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Won't that make your cold water warm when you first turn the faucet on?
 
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Old 10-08-11, 08:23 AM
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Won't that make your cold water warm when you first turn the faucet on?
Yes but its minimal. Thats the drawback, that you have to wait for cold water. But the valve closes at 98F but it dont say at what temp it opens.

I like them and use them. The grunfos site is messed up, and thats why I post the watts info. I have not used the watts, only grunfos but looks identical. I would say grunfos makes them for watts and repackages them.


Video.
Watts - Watts Hot Water Recirculating System Product Demo


Instructions
http://media.wattswater.com/IS-IHWRS.pdf

Mike NJ
 
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Old 10-08-11, 09:10 AM
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I know I'm a nit-picker... sorry about that, but I have a concern with these systems...

I for one don't really care for the idea that water that has run through my water heater, heated up, and then cooled again to infiltrate my cold water supply. When I draw cold water, I want to know that it's FRESH cold water, straight from the cold pipe, not run around in circles for hours...

Whatcha think of that thought?

Mama always said not to drink the hot water, right?
 
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Old 10-08-11, 09:42 AM
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We all have to die of something!!!! Why not have hot water instantly?????

My mama told me not to run with scissors also, but I did.

Mike NJ
 
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Old 10-08-11, 09:49 AM
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Originally Posted by NJ Trooper View Post
I know I'm a nit-picker... sorry about that, but I have a concern with these systems...

I for one don't really care for the idea that water that has run through my water heater, heated up, and then cooled again to infiltrate my cold water supply. When I draw cold water, I want to know that it's FRESH cold water, straight from the cold pipe, not run around in circles for hours...

Whatcha think of that thought?

Mama always said not to drink the hot water, right?
I'm right with you on this. Especially after all your mentioning of legionella in hot water tanks. I don't know why my mother told me that, but I suspect there could be more than just legionella to worry about. The hot water tank is great place for all contaminates to collect.
 
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Old 10-08-11, 09:56 AM
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I did some quick research on the mighty interweb. Turns out my suspicions are correct. The biggest problem will be lead. The EPA says to only use cold water for drinking and cooking. That is after you run the tap 15-30 seconds. Another place I read that even the "lead free" solder used in newer homes can contain up to 8% lead. The hot water will dissolve the lead much more easily than cold water.
 
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Old 10-08-11, 10:35 AM
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From what I know of legionella, it's not hazardous if ingested though... but it's still not for me. (and we always drank out of the garden hose, and rode bikes without helmets, and hitchhiked, and...)
 
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Old 10-08-11, 05:48 PM
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Thanks again Mike!

Now it's finally clear, when I am not confused with different pumps for different purposes
As far as lead, bacteria etc. I really doubt our cold water supply is that clean, plus they don't test for pharmaceuticals contamination anyway, so I use the RO. Hope it catches if not all, most of the bad stuff.
Thanks,
 
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