Running a natural gas line to an out building

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Old 07-27-13, 10:47 AM
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Running a natural gas line to an out building

What I know for sure is, as per Minnesota code, copper is legally bury-able at a minimum depth of 12 inches deep.
I have a plan that I'll lay out here and welcome feedback or suggestions...

My trench will be at least 18-20 inches deep, lined with 2-4 inches of sand on the bottom, sleeve the copper in CPVC pipe, plumbers putty the ends where it exits the CPVC pipe. All CPVC will be underground..

I will put a couple drain holes in the lowest spot in the CPVC pipe to get rid of any possible moisture, and then put another 2-4 inches of sand on top. Then back fill with the already dug up soil. All critical connections will be performed by a licensed heating tech.
So...any good or need to do more? Thanx guys!!
 
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Old 07-27-13, 11:03 AM
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sleeve the copper in CPVC pipe, plumbers putty the ends where it exits the CPVC pipe.
cant do that afaik... If there was a gas leak you essentially made a pipe bomb underground...Cannot sleave unless you vent the pvc every so many ft .

Why use copper?

Use poly and get galvanized ends... So simple....
 
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Old 07-27-13, 11:04 AM
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additionally, and you may already know, where are you tapping into>

What size gas line are you running to supply what BTU's, at how many feet???
 
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Old 07-27-13, 11:17 AM
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Wouldn't the drain holes provide a venting for the gas should a leak occur? The local gas company is upgrading my meter to a "higher performance" model and the new line will tee off at the meter. Running a 5/8 (1/2 ID) gasline to a 156,000 btu Reznor at approx. 150 feet..
 

Last edited by bkrtrsh; 07-27-13 at 11:32 AM.
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Old 07-27-13, 11:30 AM
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My fear on the poly line is during a dig it could easily be nicked and then UH-OH
 
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Old 07-27-13, 11:36 AM
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Wouldn't the drain holes provide a venting for the gas should a leak occur?
No!!!! I hope your getting this inspected by the town and taking out a permit...

1. Why would you use expensive copper pipe????? Have you priced it?
2. At 120 ft and 156k btu 1" pipe will need to be run... Not 5/8"
3. Here is 100 ft of 1" copper. Over $1000 bucks
1K100 - Kobe Wieland 1K100 - 1" x 100' Type K Copper Tubing Coil

4. Poly is the norm... Here are the risers you would need at each end... $60 bucks each..
Buy 1" Compression Outlet Riser for Yellow Poly Gas Pipe

5. here is the pipe. 1" at .90 cents a ft.. 150 ft.

Pipe


additionally all the above links are for reference... You can get all supply's at your local Ferguson dealer. they sell to the public.

Locations Finder


Now I assume you did not do your homework on this project very well....

Let us know if you have more questions....
 
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Old 07-27-13, 11:39 AM
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My fear on the poly line is during a dig it could easily be nicked and then UH-OH
Tracer wire must be installed with this poly by code...

Additionally before anyone digs period you need to dial 811 and get a mark out.....

Code may be 12" but I always go down father...

Why would you think you will nick the pipe at 12"????
 
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Old 07-27-13, 01:11 PM
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My ( and that's just me) very first phone call was to 811. Also we have very soft ground out here and this line goes across an access drive into the back yard. I live in a small township and asked about a permit when I had my pole building finished on the inside (the reason I'm heating it now) and they said they didn't know if I needed one. I have inquired about an inspection and gotten no viable answer. My gas company and heating guy have no issue with the 5/8 line especially with the meter upgrade. Specifically being changed to "make sure you have adequate supply". The 5/8 was $1.50 a foot. So maybe a little homework was done..
 
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Old 07-27-13, 01:21 PM
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5/8" od? 1/2" id???

1/2" id pipe @ 125 ft will only support 44k btu... You cant get more gas from it... Increasing meter size will not get you more gas through a 1/2" line afaik...

If you have a 150cf meter and are maxed for your house then they would upgrade to a 500cf meter.. Just means with everything on you will not starve for gas from the meter...

I believe you need to find a new heating guy....

1" pipe @ 125 ft will support 175K....

That is what the gas calculations say...there is no way around it..... ( Unless you know something I dont...)

So maybe a little homework was done..
Possibly regarding cost but not calculations...
 

Last edited by ray2047; 07-27-13 at 01:25 PM. Reason: Spelling: Now>NO
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Old 07-27-13, 01:29 PM
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Does PSI calculate into this at all?
 
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Old 07-27-13, 01:38 PM
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Your calculations are based on .5 psi or less? My current meter has a 2 psi sticker on it.
 
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Old 07-27-13, 01:49 PM
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What does the meters rating plate say specifically...? The diff??? Not the MAOP... if thats where your getting 2 psi... Mine says 5 psi maop but has a 1/2" diff.....5 inch w.c.
 
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Old 07-27-13, 02:50 PM
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250 C.F.H. @ 1/2 Diff. 5 MAOP
 
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Old 07-27-13, 03:06 PM
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So its a .5 inch WC meter.. My calculations are correct...

They are going to install a 500 CFH meter correct?

Where did you get the 2 psi from?
 
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Old 07-27-13, 03:12 PM
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Yellow sticker on the meter face and metering valve says 2psi..I don't know what size meter they're installing yet..
 
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Old 07-27-13, 03:37 PM
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So what your saying is there's no way this heater will fire running off that line? Or quite possibly causing problems in my house with the furnace or water heater?
 
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Old 07-27-13, 04:08 PM
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So what your saying is there's no way this heater will fire running off that line?
You mean the 5/8 line?


Or quite possibly causing problems in my house with the furnace or water heater?

Whats the total of all the btu in the home? That and 156k should be no more then the meters 250 cfh rating.. Although those meters even though they say 250 cfh can crank out 500 cfh.. Its rated like that for certification I think...

So yes they will put a bigger meter if so...

If the line is too small to the heater then it will not burn right. Needs 156k but only getting 44 K... That will cause soot issues, burner failure, draft issues and CO problems...
 
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Old 07-27-13, 04:16 PM
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Thought black iron was the norm?
 
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Old 07-27-13, 04:29 PM
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Thought black iron was the norm?
Underground??? No way... not today.... You need to tar and feather that crap....LOL... Too much labor.....
 
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Old 07-27-13, 05:03 PM
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Yes the line I currently have, 5/8 OD.
 
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Old 07-27-13, 05:21 PM
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Yes the line I currently have, 5/8 OD
I find it hard to believe your heating guy dont know this..... Is he just a handyman???


250 C.F.H. @ 1/2 Diff. 5 MAOP
This is a standard residential meter... Tapping frome the meter to a 156k btu appliance 120 ft reqires a 1" line. That 1" line supports 175k btu... Anything smaller is no good...

I hope I helped you here... Dont fight it... it is what it is....

Your tone sounds like you may have buried the pipe already or your upset you were mis informed??? We are here to help on these forums. Most can save a lot of headaches if they seek advice here at DIY..

Most mods have been in the industry many years....As well as some members that offer advice....
 
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Old 07-27-13, 05:37 PM
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Hasn't been buried yet, but it is in the walls. Looking at the pipe on the back of the heater, without actually going up there, ID doesn't look like it's all that big as to accommodate such a large feeder line. If it necks down there, does that not reduce flow?

Dont mean to have tone...Must be in my computer..
 

Last edited by bkrtrsh; 07-27-13 at 05:56 PM.
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Old 07-27-13, 06:10 PM
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Dont mean to have tone...Must be in my computer..
Hasn't been buried yet, but it is in the walls.
tone of voice.... I have a way of knowing when homeowners are trying anyway they can to make what they did correct... I been here long enough I can tell is all...


Looking at the pipe on the back of the heater, without actually going up there, ID doesn't look like it's all that big as to accommodate such a large feeder line. If it necks down there, does that not reduce flow?
Gas does not work that way... Its based on volume.. You need to get the supported volume to the appliance and that is what the 1" @ 120 ft will get you... The arms to all your appliances are necked down as you call it...

That heater probably has a 3/4 inlet. If you think reducing pipe size to the appliance will reduce btu's ...No!! Because 10 ft of 3/4 will get you360k btu...20 ft 250k btu...etc...

With the calculation once in the building you can reduce to 3/4 and run 3/4 up to 40 ft.. 3/4 @40 ft gives you 170K btu. you see you need to stay in the heaters max btu range on every pipe run....

Its all based on length you see..

example
If your out building was 10 ft from your house then you could run 1/2" @ 175K btu to the building.

Hard to give a gas lesson on the forum but I think you understand....
 

Last edited by lawrosa; 07-27-13 at 08:15 PM.
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Old 07-27-13, 07:29 PM
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Look , I really appreciate the information. I'm a factual kind of guy, meaning, I state facts and don't expound beyond that. If that gives me tone I apologize. This isn't something I as a homeowner did by mistake. The contractor did this and it will have to be corrected. I follow what your saying and appreciate the short but educational lesson in gas mathematics. I'm not about tone or saving a buck or taking short cuts. I want things done correctly and that is how I role. When I make a mistake I own up...That's how I was raised...and to this day it sticks with me. My original posting was for advice because I had an idea and wanted to get input on what to do from others. It got me far more than I bargained for, but such is life. You can figure this anyway you want but all I got for you is, Thank you for the info. My contractor on the other hand probably wont like you much. Sorry..
 
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Old 07-27-13, 07:48 PM
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Just making a quick observation here. You are concerned because the pipe is already in the wall in the pole barn. That pipe should be ok. You just need to size the incoming feeder larger.

Didn't want to confuse the issue but it sounds like your previously installed piping will be ok.
 
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Old 07-27-13, 08:13 PM
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I'll post again as I find out more....
 
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Old 07-27-13, 08:14 PM
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You can figure this anyway you want but all I got for you is, Thank you for the info. My contractor on the other hand probably wont like you much. Sorry..
Cool.... I just want you to do it right the first time... Mistakes are expensive in the plumbing world....

With that said possibly I came off a little hard and my apologies for that... everyone has a bad day now and then...when you were questioning what I was saying I felt something was up and you were trying to justify... You can learn a lot from this site....



So does what I say make sense to you? Do you understand the gas concept and what I was explaining? below is a more visual of the actual code so you can see for yourself....

So I have codes in the plumbing sticky's... Example table 402.4(7) shows copper tube capacity's in 5/8" supports only 50 k btu at 125 ft.

Any plumbing pro should have these charts readily available at all times. This is the ICC. The national fuel code is similar. Dont know what you follow in your state...

Chapter 4 - Gas Piping Installations

Here is the codes sticky.

http://www.doityourself.com/forum/pl...ing-codes.html

Now table 402.4(19) is for poly pipe which I think you will and should use... See 1" column at 125 ft supports 185 K btu... That is what you need to run...

Chapter 4 - Gas Piping Installations


Please ask any and all questions you need answered...

And please call your local township and get a permit... Its for your protection... They will make sure the contractor does it correctly. If they saw that 5/8" pipe in the trench they would fail the inspection and he would be liable to repair his screw up...

Just making a quick observation here. You are concerned because the pipe is already in the wall in the pole barn. That pipe should be ok. You just need to size the incoming feeder larger
.

Maybe not PJ...

What is actually in the walls???? How many feet and of what material and size??? Andany types of unions in the walls? swing joints. compression couplings and such? They are not allowed..just regular fittings.... Once in the barn how many ft to the unit???

You have 1/2" in the walls?? If so you can only run a max of 10 ft.... Like I said 3/4" you can run 40 ft to the unit.. Then the drop leg can be 1/2" if its 10ft or less...

Its really simple math and following the charts....

I am glad to help.....
 
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Old 07-28-13, 08:18 AM
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Noob question time

I live in the same location as the OP. In many houses I have seen gas lines inside the house marked "2psi" and then, before it goes to the heating appliances, they install a regulator.

Would running a 2psi gas line out to the pole barn and installing a regulator give the OP the volume needed to run the heater? I understand that volume and pressure are different things, but it seams to me that if you have more pressure, you would also have more volume. I did look at the chart but it lists 474 CFH?
 
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Old 07-28-13, 08:37 AM
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"You have 1/2" in the walls?? If so you can only run a max of 10 ft.... Like I said 3/4" you can run 40 ft to the unit.. Then the drop leg can be 1/2" if its 10ft or less..."

Unfortunately...Looks like a re-do is on the horizon
 
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Old 07-28-13, 08:46 AM
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Good question Tolyn... AFAIK 2psi regulators are often only used for speacial demand situations like multiple dwellings and such...

I would like to see this yellow tag with the psi rating...

You know anything is possible.

But his meter reflects a pressure drop of a system that is less then 2 psi...with a 1/2" W.C... All the 2psi meters are 1" and up...

If indeed 2 psi possibly thats part of the meter upgrade???? Then indeed the op would not even need 5/8" copper and could use 1/2"..

Curious to find out now.......

If so then I was wrong........and this whole thread will self destruct at any moment...
 
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Old 07-28-13, 03:05 PM
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Just talked to my heating guy and in his book that he checked he says a 3/8" line would even work, so the 1/2" is more than adequate. He also said he has to put a regulator at the heater to bring it down from 2lbs.
 
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Old 07-28-13, 03:09 PM
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Old 07-28-13, 05:22 PM
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That was my thinking, that he is going to run 2 psi out to the barn and then regulate it down to working pressure.

I do like the poly pipe idea though.

Please don't self destruct the thread, I'm learning stuff!
 
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