Specific question on the code of Wye over sani-tee and trap size

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Old 09-08-13, 11:13 AM
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Specific question on the code of Wye over sani-tee and trap size

I'm getting some competing professional opinions and wanted to try to get some clarification. My understanding was a wye is for horizontal connections and a sani-tee is on vertical. I read several places from people that are clearly pro plumbers that a wye in the vertical is a no-no as it creates a partial S trap. I just spoke to a local master plumber and he said all the inspectors in the area are now wanting to see a wye absolutely everywhere and the only place they let a sani-tee go is in the venting.

As I said in my previous thread I used a 4x4x2 sani-tee to bring in the 2" horizontal that will tie in my bathroom tub and sink and a 4x4x4 sani-tee to tie in toilet. I was also in a bunch of big $$ houses last week, a couple of them only about six years old, and specifically looked and noticed sani-tees on vertical stacks with wyes used on horizontal runs and as cleanouts.

The other thing was trap size. I know you need a minimum size based on fixture load. But I was going to go to a 2" trap on the tub. This master plumber said no go and 1 1/2" is code. That's fine and it's not done yet so it's easy. But I thought you could go larger if you wanted, just not smaller?

The toilet is flushing fine and I really doubt it would ever clog but if I really do have to go back and do this twice I might as well do it now before it's all buttoned up. The way it's all packed in their though I suspect I'd have to replace pretty much everything again. But that would still be easier than getting the cast and lead out of there again!

Thanks.
 
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Old 09-11-13, 06:25 AM
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My understanding is the same as yours. You can use sanitary tees when dropping a horizontal line into a vertical line, but that's it. Any time the tee is turned on it's back, you need to use a wye instead. But this is based on UPC, localities may have their own rules. Also, afaik, you can replace a combo wye for anywhere you use a sanitary tee if desired.

As for the trap size, I'm not sure. You can upsize piping, but the trap may be specifically sized for the fixture in question. I would think using a 3" or 4" trap on a bath tub could cause issues (not that you would ever do it... but just in concept).

I'm not a plumber, and still learning about DWV codes... so take my response with a grain or two of salt.
 
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Old 09-11-13, 06:58 AM
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You cant put the san tees as you described for your 4x4x2 and, 4x4x4.
Must be a Y. The reason is when a st 45 is added to the Y end it in turn makes a sweep. A sweep is required by code going from vertical to horizontal at all times.

The trap if it was increase you change the dynamics of the trap weir and is not allowed. It may create siphoning. Keep the trap same size as pipe.

Draw out how you piped everything... Most times homeowners get it wrong and venting is way off because its not understood.
 
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Old 09-11-13, 12:40 PM
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Then when CAN you use a T? I"m not trying to argue - I've heard enough people say its wrong at this point that I know it should be changed. I'm also sure I messed quite a bit of it up. I've done a ton of code reading and forum browsing the past couple weeks and really can't believe how complex DWV is. Regardless, I'll post a few pictures instead of the diagram for now. It's all still basically accessible and I've got to pull the toilet off at least one more time before this is all done. The dirty work is done though. The floor is has all been repaired, lead all gone, cast cut off clean and so on.
 
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Old 09-11-13, 01:14 PM
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I'm not really happy with any of it but it is working. That's the vent going up out the top and to the right where it transitions to 2" galvanized. Again the plan on that is to open the wall in the spring to tie in the sink vent.

Toilet is obvious.

Then out to the left is the 2" for the sink and tub. There is very little of the tub plumbing you can't see in the pictures. In the tub trap picture you see it dissappear to the right. In the other picture you see it coming into view via a sweep 90 and down into the 2".

The sink plumbing comes forward and I'm really not happy with that but I just had to get a working sink up there before my wife completely lost it

The sink is being changed though so at the very least I'll be cutting it out at the 2" Wye and going new from there to the new sink.

I will say that while it may not be right - it's working fantastic. The sink and the tub never drained for nothing. Now they both will suck you down and out the drain with them. It's actually sort of scary how fast it drains now.
 
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Old 09-11-13, 03:46 PM
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Thats a mess... I will get the code for you... Give me some time. Probably later tonight or tomorrow ///

Where is the vent for the toilet?

O geez I will need to go through this one at a time. If you can label what pipe goes to what it will help.

I will say that while it may not be right - it's working fantastic.
Draining is one thing but what you have is some wet vents there and what your doing is most likely siphoning from the traps. Sewer gas can kill you or make you really ill.
 

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Old 09-12-13, 05:36 AM
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Lol - tell us how you really feel! Sadly I agree. Normally when I do this stuff it comes out very good. The whole basement waterproofing, switch from oil to gas, put in my own boiler never having done anything like that before from a couple of years ago on the whole turned out quite good. This time, not so much.

In the first picture the 2" you see coming up out of the top of the stack is the vent. My understanding is the toilet does not have to be vented directly as it will wet vent and the trap refills every time the toilet is flushed.

The sink will be vented with an AAV when the new sink goes in later this month. Next spring we'll tackle getting the old tile out that we suspect may be asbestos based. At that point we can sneak in a vent from the sink over to where the existing vent goes up the wall and out through the roof. The only other option is to loop the vent, bring it back down into the first floor ceiling and across to the exposed vent piping. Read some interesting stuff where super small vents were run around. 1/2" and 3/4" piping for venting. Scientific study, not just some random dude. No averse effects on traps at all. But not currently accepted practice/code either.

As for siphoning and sewer gases. After seeing how bad the floor was under the toilet with no seal left of any kind I now understand that a lot of the rank smell was actually some sewer gas leaking through. We thought it was the nasty old carpet that the kids kept soaking through at bath time. Also we found the existing vent was pretty much choked solid where it turned horizontal. All that is now cut out. What I have here is not right, but it is definitely much better sealed and far less likely to siphon a trap than what was in there before, especially after we put in the new sink with a Ptrap and AAV.

I'm happy to rework what's here. It's not that much plumbing and there won't be any more surprises. But I suspect getting the venting 100% is still going to be the biggest hurdle until next spring when I can safely pull all that tile and run an entirely new vent out through the roof. Even then the venting on the first floor and basement will still be entirely screwed up.

It's not just venting that has confused the hell out of me though. It all seemed pretty straight forward. Keep your drop/ft correct and otherwise make it all flow downhill right? yea, apparently it's a little more complex than that!
 
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Old 09-12-13, 05:47 AM
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Lets start here. Whats that line above?

Is there a main stack that goes up through the roof?

Thats a wet vent and you cant do that. Need to put a Y on the toilet line, although what is that line that I have an X on the san tee?


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Old 09-12-13, 05:57 AM
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I really wish I had invested the time into sketchup. I could do a whole 3D model of this by now. I thought I had described it pretty well but obviously not. The green you marked is the toilet with the flange right there above the floor. The three red xxx is where the 2" comes in from the sink and the tub. The 2" "what's this" is the vent out the top of the stack. It goes another foot to the right and then turns to go up through the wall and out to the roof.

Other than the Wye over T I didn't think the venting was that bad. Based on what you drew in my other thread about the order the sink, tub and toilet follow into the main drain this seemed OK.

What you see in those picutres is 98.5% of the 2nd floor plumbing. There are no hidden long runs or bends or anything.
 
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Old 09-12-13, 06:06 AM
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If, and that's a big if, I'm reading you correctly you want to see a Why for the toilet line and for the sink/tub line. From you picture it seems you want the Wye for the sink/tub to come off what I have going up to the toilet. That just does not make any sense to me at all. I realize it doesn't have to make sense to me but I do generally like to understand what it is I'm doing.

Obviously I'm going to have to do some actual drawings and get this all figured out before I did back into it. It will be two to three weeks before the new toilet is here so we've got some time.
 
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Old 09-12-13, 06:18 AM
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The 2" "what's this" is the vent out the top of the stack. It goes another foot to the right and then turns to go up through the wall and out to the roof.
Why 2"? why was it not 3"? If thats the main stack a vent /stack needs to be a certain size... When you do DWV you need to count in fixture units and what can support all the units..

Example only.

A toilet say is 3 fixture units
tub 5
Sink 2
shower 4
washer 4

That adds to 18 fixture units. For example only a 2" stack/vent can only support 10 fixture units.

Now I will need to pull the books out but thats how it works.


The three red xxx is where the 2" comes in from the sink and the tub.
That part looks fine here. But you need to vent the sink for this to work as I have shown.




This is what needs to be done basically. Should look like this somewhat where the vent will go up and through the roof with 2".


 
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Old 09-12-13, 06:46 AM
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It was done in 2" because that's what's there from 1945 or so. Like I said. I think the venting will be the hardest part to get to full current code. As for the DWV units - I did read in some international plumbing code stuff that a bathroom can be lumped together as 6 units. I'd have to check to see if my local inspectors allow that sort of grouping.

But if I'm understanding you it sounds like I could somewhat leave things as they are, at least in terms of location. Cut out the two Ts and make them both Wyes Make the vent 3" up through the roof and tie in the sink properly to that 3" vent. Would that make it all seem happy to you? Or does the vent itself regardless of size need to attach to the stack and toilet line differently?

For the toilet would you do a sweep Wye and then a long sweep 90 up to the toilet, or just a Wye straight up towards the toilet and a 45 to make the final bend to the flange drop.

As for the 3" vent. yea that's still going to be the biggest challenge but I'll take a second look at it. Again I know most pros don't like them but AAVs are legal in this county/towhship. PA does things by local jurisdiction. NJ is easier is it's mostly all done at the state level. What would be interesting to me is if the use of an AAV reduces the number of DWV units from a venting standpoint, making it possible to be fully code compliant now with the 2".

And thank you very much for your time and expertise. I know helping out delusional homeowners is a mostly thankless job.

P.S. That's a T in your picture! I am so confused
 
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Old 09-12-13, 07:48 AM
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Would that make it all seem happy to you?
It does not matter to me.. Its your home. You can leave it like that is you like. I am only telling you its not code and would fail if you got any kind of inspection. No permits were taken out I assume... The inspector would red tag the home for sure.


Or does the vent itself regardless of size need to attach to the stack and toilet line differently?

I can hardly teach you plumbing on line here. It would take a long time. I can only suggest on what I know.

My advice would be take out that permit, let the inspector fail you, and he will tell you what needs to be done. I have shown you that two Y's or san tees cant be stacked in most instances. You are creating a wet vent. Not to code today.

The fact that you need to vent the toilet is why I have shown you to add the Y to the toilet branch. In a bath group the sink vent takes care of it all, but you need to pipe properly below as I have shown you.

Cut out the two Ts and make them both Wyes
No.....

Make the vent 3" up through the roof and tie in the sink properly to that 3" vent.
Once the 3" stack is up through the roof, then the sink vent will be 2". You can run the sink vent out through the roof or when in the attic tie into the 3" stack up there.

( Note. Nothing feeds into that 2" stack you have now from up stairs does it?)


What would be interesting to me is if the use of an AAV reduces the number of DWV units from a venting standpoint, making it possible to be fully code compliant now with the 2".
AAV's are bad practice , period IMO..... It does not reduce anything. It just prevents to homeowner of going through the hassle of getting the vent to the upstairs. If it was mtself I would outlaw all AAV's


And thank you very much for your time and expertise.
Your welcome..


I know helping out delusional homeowners is a mostly thankless job.
delusional ?????


That's a T in your picture! I am so confused
Post #8 grn line is a Y.....
 
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Old 09-12-13, 09:37 AM
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Delusional - because incompetent doesn't really tell the whole story now does it?

By happy I meant to your professional standards, I certainly meant nothing negative by it.

No, no permits at this time and no current plans for inspection. Actually my township doesn't much care about permits for what they deem repairs like this. I know the township people pretty well at this point. The plan is to get it all inspected after the rest of it is fixed as well. That does not mean I'm not interested in doing it to the best of my (and yours) abilities as I go along.

The T I was referring to was in your picture, not the one of mine that you marked up!

As to the meat of the problem. No I totally did not understand that part of the offense was two stacked Ts. I do believe I'm finally starting to get the picture. Following that through I think that the 2" wye is also wrong as I have the sink coming into the wye. Maybe that's OK but I would think what you are describing would mean that the tub should come into the wye with the sink coming in from the end. So sink, followed by tub, followed by toilet and then into the stack.

I'm not quite sure how to make all those angles fit. And I've been doing enough reading to know there are all kinds of limitations on angles, degrees of bend and so on. I'll have to think it through to see what would fit in there.

I don't really plan to do this, but would it be either a code violation or just bad professional practice to drop the toilet plumbing and stack to 3" just for some extra maneuvering room? The main drain running the length of the basement (underground) and out to the street is 3" PVC anyway. So maintaining 4" seems like it probably has limited benefit.

Funny but I was not even thinking about taking the vent to the attic and then over to the main vent. That actually wouldn't be too awful if it wasn't for the fact that we have dense packed cellulose blown in there for sound deadening and fire prevention. The easiest way to get a 3" vent up from the stack through the roof is to just go through the wall right there in that picture and leave it exposed on the outside

No the vent pipe is not a drain in any way. What you see in the picture is pretty much it. Another foot to the right and it turns 90 degrees to go up through the wall and out the roof. No other plumbing attached.
 
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Old 09-12-13, 11:24 AM
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Does this help?......................... Grn is all vent and no waste water should run in it. If you have additional stuff draining somewhere let me know. From this point you can stack Y's but the added branch will need to be vented like the toilet.

In your case the toilet is not vented. You can leave your stacked fitting and change them to Y's but the toilet needs a vent. So why do that? Dump the tub and sink into the toilet arm and vent the sink. You kill three birds with one stone.

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Old 09-12-13, 12:09 PM
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Now if you say add a washer to that line this is how you stack the Y's on the main stack. The vent in grn for the washer is 1 1/2". The waste line for washer is all 2". I can now stack the two Y's because both branches are vented properly. The washer line and the bath group.

If I did not vent the washer line then the two stacked y's essentially become a wet vent. That would be the space between the two Y's. Its called that because if there was no vent on the washer line then the washer is using the stack as the vent. But if someone uses the bathroom that section between the y's is wet. Hence its a wet vent for the washer line.

Wet vents are not to code... And its been that way as long as I have been plumbing, which is some 30 yrs now.


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Old 09-12-13, 12:33 PM
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Yes, that along with all the other information is certainly painting a better picture. now it's just looking at it from this new information and figuring out the cleanest way to do it. Certainly the overlay you did on my picture could easily be done without changing a whole lot that's there. I think the 4" wye would be laid over pretty hard but still within the 135 degrees. I can see a few other possibilities too that might make it all a bit tighter into the corner of that closet and make it easier to bring the vent through, keeping it 3" until right before it goes into the ceiling. I'd just make sure I had enough pipe to cut it clean and then extend it 3" to the ceiling when we open walls.

Nothing will be added to it until an addition is done. When that happens the bathroom will be moved entirely with another full bath on top of it.

I was doing some extensive reading over the weekend and the issue of wet venting the toilet came up repeatedly. In some parts of the country not only is it OK to wet vent the toilet but pro plumbers will vigorously defend the practice. Some of the conversations between the pros that vent the toilet and those in parts of the country that wet vent the toilet got pretty heated too!

Same with AAVs. Most pros hate them and want them banned - but a few will pipe in and say they've used thousands to cheaply solve issues for their customers.

That's just the nature of things and frankly I wouldn't have it any other way. I'm very passionate about what I do as well and have had some very heated discussions about how a professional installation should be approached, regardless of code. If we aren't passionate and opinionated about it, we shouldn't' be doing it.

At this point I'm certainly not going to open it back up until the new toilet is here and I pick up the cheapy sink from the home center. Once I have those in hand I'll start putting together a final plan. Even if I can't get the 3" vent in there I can certainly do the rest right and make it easy to add the 3" vent when things get opened up.
 
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Old 09-12-13, 12:40 PM
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Having said all that - we still have an existing kitchen and basement bathroom to talk about, including a double sink with two washing machines emptying into it. The only vent on any of that is a cheapy check valve coming out of the ground next to the basement toilet and shower. About 40 years old....

So you see - the bathroom is only one minor part of this disaster called a house.
 
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Old 09-12-13, 12:52 PM
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Why are you using 4"???????


I was doing some extensive reading over the weekend and the issue of wet venting the toilet came up repeatedly. In some parts of the country not only is it OK to wet vent the toilet but pro plumbers will vigorously defend the practice.
Well no, but I see what you may be thinking. The toilet vent you would assume is a wet vent with how its drawn and I may be contradiction myself. But no. Now you need to think like a trap.

In my example of the washer line not being vented water use from the bathroom group will siphon out the washer trap... wet vent.....

Now look at the bath group. Use each fixture in your mind and tell me what fixture use will siphon water out of another's trap..... The answer is none... The reason is all fixtures are dumped in one arm.. That being the toilet vent arm, which in turn is essentially the sink vent, which in turn is the common vent for all the fixtures in that group...

All venting is basically for is so other fixtures don't get the water siphoned from the traps.

Hope this makes sense.
 
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Old 09-12-13, 12:59 PM
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I'm very clear that venting is about protecting the trap integrity, not any concern for actual water flow. I believe the argument was that wet venting a toilet actually helps keep the toilet line clean and that the chance of siphoning the toilet to the point of breaking the trap seal is nearly impossible, especially as the toilet gets flushed so often, refilling the trap.

Just to be clear - I'm just talking about what I read. My intention is to pipe and vent it as you have said we do it here in the NE.

I will see if I can pull the thread back up from another forum. This was definitely a heated argument among pros about the merits of venting the toilet directly or letting it wet vent, even if it was 30' from the stack.

Edit - just saw your 4" question. The cast was 4" and it just seemed bigger is better I also read about over sizing the pipe to make wet venting meet code in some circumstances. So I just went with it. But I expect I will drop to 3" on the redo where I cut the 4" off on the vertical. I think the flange may even have been on that takes 3" pipe on the inside so I may be able to reuse the flange. If not no big deal.
 
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Old 09-12-13, 01:20 PM
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I believe the argument was that wet venting a toilet actually helps keep the toilet line clean and that the chance of siphoning the toilet to the point of breaking the trap seal is nearly impossible, especially as the toilet gets flushed so often, refilling the trap.
That does not make sense. You would need to show me how a toilet would be wet vented.


even if it was 30' from the stack.

There are limits to distances from the stack/vent regarding pipe size.


Edit - just saw your 4" question. The cast was 4" and it just seemed bigger is better
Bigger is not better. The natural flow of water acyually swirls around the pipe as it travels cleaning the whole circumfrance of the pipe. This is why proper pitch is important. Too much and water just travels on the bottom only. Too little and waste may fail to move properly.

As far as too big, you may not get the desired swirling action....

But now thinking I need to look at the code. It may be from what I remenber that whatever size pipe comes into the home must continue that size to the roof as the stack... Hmm I will look later.

ohh if you want to read some codes they are right here in the sticky I have.

http://www.doityourself.com/forum/pl...ing-codes.html
 
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Old 09-12-13, 01:38 PM
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I took a quick look in my history but sadly can't find it and don't remember the exact search term I used. The one specific discussion was a pro from Ohio saying not venting a toilet is lazy plumbing and a few other guys getting quite pissed by him saying that and talking about the benefits of wet venting the toilet. That with the size of the toilet piping it's basically impossible to siphon the trap dry as it's always wet vented. Now maybe I was just getting it wrong and he was referring to adding a vent directly to the toilet line as opposed to wet venting the toilet via the rest of the bathroom branch but I really don't think so.

I will drop it all to 3" where I cut it. I really wish I could just bypass all the cast and go directly into the 3" line in the basement but there's no way to do it. All this is cantilevered out over a 20" thick foundation. I'd have to bring the stack in so far it would be in the middle of the dining room floor

The 4" was also from a pro saying always go big but I was thinking 3" would be better for much of what you just described. I also found reference to some of the low gpf toilets preferring 3" to keep the water velocity up. We ordered a 1.28GPF basic Toto. If you don't like that toilet, please don't tell me. At this point I just don't want to know!
 
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Old 09-12-13, 04:03 PM
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That with the size of the toilet piping it's basically impossible to siphon the trap dry as it's always wet vented.
Not true at all. Siphoning does funny things. And when a main line clogs that said bransh line or 2" toilet vent as shown in my drawing toilets siphon very quickly. This from experience if often how I know there is a partial clog in the main that essentially blocks the line which in turn blocks the sink vent, which is the vent for the whole bath.

When I go in the home and the owner tells me the toilet has no water and gurgles and flushes itself..99.9 % its a partial clog.


also found reference to some of the low gpf toilets preferring 3" to keep the water velocity up. We ordered a 1.28GPF basic Toto. If you don't like that toilet, please don't tell me. At this point I just don't want to know!

Well the trap way and exit port on the toilets are only 2". So if it gets through the toilet it should get through the line.


We ordered a 1.28GPF basic Toto.
You have to love Al Gore...

Yes toto is fine... I recommend the champion 4 from american standard.. or totos only... Sometimes Kohler highlines....
 
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Old 09-13-13, 05:19 AM
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Hey if Al Gore hadn't invented the internet we couldn't be having this discussion!

This is starting to drift way off topic and I can play devils advocate on this stuff all day. In your scenario the toilet siphoned because of a broken system. So even a system plumbed to current NJ code will still siphon if something goes wrong with the system. But would it ever siphon if the system wasn't broken and was just wet vented?

I am curious about my main drain though as I have long thought there was a partial clog from the way things act at certain times, including the basement toilet siphoning or occasionally slightly filling. It's too early to tell but since I did this plumbing and unclogged the vent it hasn't happened once. Still, considering how far we are going with all this it would probably be a good idea to have a camera shoved through there to make sure everything underground is OK.

My assumption was that the water flow issue was similar to exhaust on a car. You can go too big and loose all velocity. Keeping the pipe smaller keeps up the velocity. No idea if that really plays a role in this or not but that was what I thought of when I read it. I did call Toto to ask 3" or 4" for the toilet plumbing and they said it makes no difference to them.

I looked at the layout a bit last night and this morning. I have some ideas on how to tidy everything up and get it to code. I'll have to draw out what I'm thinking to make sure I'm not inadvertently screwing something else up.

The gist of it is I'm thinking a wye-t directly off the bottom of the drop from the toilet flange that would leave the 2" inlet just above the bottom of the joists. That would put the tub and sink drains completely above the closet ceiling and if I do it right I believe it would mean a lot less fittings and angles to get it done. Not sure what to do from the bottom of the wye-t down to the main stack though. Sweep 90 over to a wye-t on the stack would keep it all pretty tight. Or maybe just a wye on the stack and a 45 off the bottom of the wye-t.

Have some other thoughts as well about how to keep it all neat and code worthy but the above is so far my preferred resolution.

For the sink vent I would love to just plumb the vent like for an island with the vent going up a bit and then coming back down into that closet ceiling to tie into the main vent. But I know that's even less code worthy and more work than just the AAV. So even though I'd like to, I won't.
 
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Old 09-13-13, 06:21 AM
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Cant see the whole set up but I would probably use a toilet ell with a 2" inlet and keep it all tucked up nice. But there are several ways to do it really.



 
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Old 09-13-13, 06:51 AM
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Size:  9.4 KBNow that's funny. I saw one of those at the home center and the plumber there said that we sell them but they don't meet code. I'm not talking about just a person working the plumbing section but the recently retired master plumber that they pay good money to have on staff.

But something like that will keep it very tidy indeed and yes of course there are many ways to get it done. I also saw a pro plumber replacing a lead bend just like I am and he used a 3" flange with a built in 45 to keep it all very tight up in the ceiling. I thought of that too but I'd rather tie it together under the joist, so the stack goes a few inches up above that connection before heading horizontal. I want to make sure the vent stays dry. Crappy sketch attached!

Alternatively would be to come up and over with the stack in 3" and put a horizontal tie in there for the bathroom stuff. But even if that was code I don't think I'd be comfortable doing that unless I made it sealed 3" PVC all the way through the roof as that vent area is going to get a ton of water exposure. By doing the tie in just below the joist it should keep that vent area nice and dry and clear.
 
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