TOILETS

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  #1  
Old 03-20-01, 11:44 AM
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A couple of toilet questions:

One toilet sounds like it is running all the time. Not loud, like when the flap isn't shut, but light running. Water seems to be flowing down that pipe in the middle of the tank. Could this be why my water bill is so dang high? If it is what I think it is...then the fix would be to adjust that ball, right? Want to make sure before I replace this thing. It is all gunked up and wont adjust, so I think (if this is the problem) that I will replace the tank stuff.
Am I on the right track here?

Next, the other bath. To flush the toilet you have to hold down the handle til the "stuff" is almost all the way down. If you don't, it "quits" flushing. This tank has one of those sliding floats, not the ball kind like in the other toilet. Is ther an adjustment on this to get it to flush by just pushing the knob? Or do I need to replace both of these?
Thanks for the help.
 
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Old 03-20-01, 02:41 PM
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Toilets

Hi,

Replace first toilet with a FluidMaster Toilet Fill Valve- 400A (What you have in other toilet).

Near the top of the fill valve shank will be a line and letters C.L.(Critical Level).This line has to be a minimum 1" above top of overflow pipe in toilet tank.You can hold middle of shank and twist lower part of shank,both directions while pulling/pushing slightly to make it longer/shorter until it's correct heighth.

Where the float(large black cup)attaches to thin metel rod,there is a clip that you squeeze to slide float up/down to obtain correct water level,(should be a marked line for water level on back of tank or on overflow pipe).

Once installed,use the clip that comes with the new valve to attach the water hose from valve to top above pipe,do not put it down inside pipe.

Once these steps are completed,with water still off,unscrew top black cap of valve counter clockwise 1/4 turn while holding up on arm attachment.Place and hold a cup over valve top after removing cap and turn on water to flush out any debris,then turn off water and align cap so when turned clockwise 1/4 turn to lock back in place,it is in same position as before.You'll have to push down slightly while turning to remove and relace.Be sure it locks in place.

The directions with the new valve will cover all these and other steps if you have any problems.


Second toilet could need a new flapper,old flapper handle attachment adjusted,water level adjusted or a new valve.After other toilet is finished,use above steps to try and solve second toilets problem by making sure it is set up like the new valve in the first toilet.If it doesn't solve it,you may want to just replace it,approx. $10.00 each for the valves.

Be sure water level does not extend above the top of the overflow pipe.

Keep us posted and if you need more help,write back.

Hope this helps,Take Care.

CoolBreeze

[Edited by CoolBreeze on 03-21-01 at 03:04]
 
  #3  
Old 03-21-01, 12:06 PM
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Talking !/2 worked

Ok, thanks Cool Breeze. The first toilet was a complete success. Thanks

The second toilet however, remains a problem. It is an "Eljer" model. I have the float as high as it can go, the fill valve is about one inch below the handle hole. (maybe 1.5 inches) Top of that is one inch below the CL.
I replaced the flapper, which helped a little. But it still shuts down the flush a bit too early. Seems to me, very novice, that there is about one inch too little water in the tank. Meaning if there was a bit more water, the flapper would stay up a bit longer. As it is, the flush only drains about half the water in the tank. If you hold the handle down a bit, the whole tank empties. I think I need a new handle too....the existing one wiggles a little, the pin that holds it in is messed up.
Am I on the right track here? Is that flapper coming down too early because there is not enough water to keep it afloat a bit longer?

Plus, one more deal...the tank bolts are corroded on. The slot side in the tank is stripping a bit while the nut end does not budge. I say this because I wonder if I need to install a new fill valve to take the water right below the handle hole.....how to get those out without breaking something.....ideas? Common?

Hey thanks for the help.......ONE DOWN and one to go.
MW
 
  #4  
Old 03-21-01, 01:11 PM
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Toilets

Hi MW,

Glad first toilet went well,you're welcome and congrats on 1/2 job completed!!! Now,when you state tank bolts are corroded on,are you referring to the nuts under the tank where the incoming water line connects to bottom of fill valve or are you referring to the two bolts that connect the tank to the toilet bowl (seat part)?

You do not have to remove the two tank to toilet seat bolts.All you have to remove to change fill valve is the nuts under tank at water inlet to change fill valve.

The only thing as far as distance is concerned is to place fill valve in tank and adjust shank so that the C.L. line on shank is a minimum of 1" above top of overflow pipe in middle of the tank.

The water level controls time of flapper in up position to control flush time.The flapper will remain up until water has drained below it so more water will hold it up longer.Once the water is at marked level,everything should work.The only thing to watch is to make sure level never goes above top of overflow pipe and that the small tube/hose from valve to overflow pipe is clipped/attached above overflow pipe and not down inside it.

Also make sure the flapper to handle attachment is correct with enough "give" to allow it to come up all the way and when down it can go all the way down to seal.You can also take an abrasive type clothe and wipe/clean flapper seat to ensure tight seal when flappers down.

I would slide float clip all the way down as far as it will go on the metal rod and allow water to fill tank until it cuts off water.Then slide clip upward a little and wait for water to rise and stop again.Keep repeating this until water level reaches line marked on tank wall or on the overflow pipe.It should be about 1" below top of overflow pipe.

Once you get the valve C.L. line 1" above pipe and the actual water level 1" below top of pipe and hose from valve attached over the top of pipe (not down in it) and flapper/handle adjusted,you should be ok.If not,replace valve and handle (if needed) following same guidelines as on other toilet.

These are two different settings,the C.L. line (on valve shank) w/o water in tank 1" above top of pipe and then with water on filling tank,the water level cut-off at marked line,about 1" below top of pipe.This should give enough water for complete flush.If unable to adjust water level to correct point,replace with a new valve.

Hope this helps,write back if you need additional help.Take Care.

CoolBreeze
 
  #5  
Old 03-22-01, 12:42 AM
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If your eljer toilet has a fluidmaster 400A ballcock assembly (the compact black and gray one) then there are two ways to bring that float up higher. First shut off the water. Now unclip the flexible rubber hose that feeds into the overflow tube. Now grasp the stem of the assembly close to the bottom firmly and rotate the upper portion with your other hand counterclockwise. The stem should lenghten bringing the CL up closer to where you want it.

The more advanced method is to undo the retaining ring on the stem beneath the float. It is about 1/2 way up the stem. Pull up on the retaining ring until it comes loose. Then you can lengthen/shorten the assembly to the desired height and then push down on the ring to tighten the connection. Keep the water off during this procedure.

If you have the old style ballcock assembly with the float on the arm, bend the arm up until the water reaches the desired height.
 
  #6  
Old 03-22-01, 01:20 AM
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Toilet Valve

MW,

Paulypfunk is correct.If you've followed all the steps previously mentioned and you have float as high up on the rod as it will go and the water level is still too low:

Then raise the C.L. on the valve by extending shank as per earlier instructions.This will in effect raise the float up higher so as to allow water level to rise higher before reaching float which then rises to push up on arm attachment to close valve.

The C.L. has to be minimum of 1" above top of overflow pipe but can be higher and water level at marked line below top of overflow pipe.

Extend the valve shank as high as possible with top of valve below top of tank to allow tank top cover to rest on tank top.Then use float clip/rod to obtain correct water level.Also be sure float valve does not come into contact with handle during flushing and replace handle if damaged.

I apoligize for not making that clearer earlier but it was a long day.Take Care and let us know if that takes care of it.

PS: Thanks to you too Pauly for re-energizing my tired brain cells.

CoolBreeze
 
  #7  
Old 03-22-01, 01:12 PM
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Oh Please, don't be sorry. Your help has been great.
I think I have done everything the two of you suggest. It seems we are still a bit short on water in the tank. Here's why, I think.

The center valve, with the water flow clip, is short. My guess is cut by the former homeowner. I have adjusted the other one, with the float, up as high as it can go and still fit under the lid. So the water comes in but spills into that center valve. I'm thinking this means I have to replace that center valve. I dunno.

The toilet does work better, just not right. You have to hold down the handle during a flush for about two seconds, before it was about 15 seconds.

Thanks to both for your continued help and suggestions.
mw
 
  #8  
Old 03-22-01, 03:40 PM
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Toilets

Hi MW,
Lets simplify things a bit by clarifying a few things so as to not be confused as it's sometimes hard to describe items over the net.

The first toilet you completed and everything is fine with it,is this correct? If so, we'll no longer mention it unless necessary and if so,lets call it simply,Toilet-#1.

The second one is the present problem,is this correct? If so,we'll call it Toilet-#2

The Float Fill Valve (FluidMaster-400A)= Fill Valve.

The pipe in center of toilet with small tube attached from top part of Fill Valve= Overflow Pipe.

Now,is there a mark on the overflow pipe or back tank wall for correct water level?

Are you saying that you have adjusted the Fill Valve shank as far as possible for being able to fit below top area of tank?

Water seeping over into (?)--Do you mean into the overflow pipe?

OK,Hold bottom of Fill Valve shank and twist upper/middle section extending the shank until the top of the Fill Valve Cap is just below tank top surface (any higher would interfere with tank top).

Now,squeeze the clip that attaches the float cup to the metal rod and slide all the way down as far as possible.

Turn water on and allow to rise to cut-off point.Then slide clip up a little and again allow it to rise to cut-off. Keep repeating this until it reaches correct water level (Marked Line).Should be about 1" below top of overflow pipe.

Make sure small tube is attached above the Overflow Pipe and that your Flapper has enough give in chain-to-handle to allow a complete seat when flapper closes.

If the handle is defective,replace it.

When you said it's too short,previous owners may have cut it,were you referring to the Overflow Pipe ?

Just to clarify,twist/turn lower Fill Valve Shank while holding middle to extend it.Do this until top cap is just below lip of tank top. Then squeeze clip-to-rod and slide all the way down,turn on water and each time it (water) cuts off,if below correct level,squeeze clip and slide it UP a little and keep on until it's right level.


Clip/Rod=Squeeze and slide Up to to raise water level and down to lower it.

You can measure Toilet #2 overflow pipe and compare it to toilet #1 overflow pipe to see if overflow was cut.

Follow these tips and answer all the questions and I think we'll have you good to go.

PS:You can slide clip/rod down a little at a time to lower water level below top of overflow about 1" and see how that does to start and then follow above steps if needed.

Hope this helps,Take Care and let us know how it goes.

CoolBreeze

[Edited by CoolBreeze on 03-22-01 at 05:56]
 
  #9  
Old 03-23-01, 01:36 PM
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Talking Thanks to Cool Breeze

You're right, sorry about my questions and lack of clarity...toilet #1 is done, great, mission accomplished.
Toilet #1 and toilet #2 are different styles.

Now to toilet #2.

I think the problem IS the overflow pipe.

I have adjusted the Fill Valve shank as high as I can without hitting the cover of the tank.

As currently adjusted...water does flow into (over) overflow pipe.

On that same overflow pipe there is a marking for the water line. Right at that line the overflow pipe has been cut.
That cut is 1 inch below the handle hole.

I have the float on the fill valve adjusted all the way up. Maybe too far since the water leaks back into the overflow valve.

The CL on the Fill valve is a bit higher than 1 inch above the water level mark on the overflow valve. If I lower it again to 1 inch, it flushes even shorter.

The handle may be defective, the rod holding the chain is bent to &^% and gone. I have straightened it and it seems to work better, but there is still some "play" in it.

The part I thought the previous owners cut was the overflow pipe, yes.

Cant compare overlow pipe length in T1 and T2 since they are different styles and brands, right?
Toilet 2 is a low squatty tank "Eljer" and Toilet 1 is a standard white deep tank with a front handle.

It just looks to me like there is not enough water in the tank to keep that flapper up for another second or two....it flops back down and chokes off the flush. I did replace the flapper and the new one is much better. If that dang thing would hang up there just a bit longer....VIOLA!

I appreciate your patience....I may need a plumber to the house soon. Maybe it is the handle not pulling the flapper up high enough....I dunno, I will mess with it this weekend for a while.

MW
 
  #10  
Old 03-23-01, 03:23 PM
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Toilet Valve

MW,
Don't give up yet.If the water is reaching the water level marked line,it should flush fully if handle to flapper is adjusted and in good working order. I would suggest you replace the handle assy. . (Do This First)

Next is the overflow pipe having been cut at the water line mark.Water reaching this line by necessity now runs over into overflow pipe.There are two remedies for this.

#1- Replace the overflow pipe assy. or #2- Go to your local Do-It-Yourself Friendly Depot/Hardware Store/Plumbing Supply and purchase a 3/4" PVC Coupling,about3" of PVC Pipe (They should be able to find a scrap piece) and a small can of All Purpose Cement (For PVC,CPVC and ABS) and glue PVC Coupling to Overflow Pipe after turning off the water and draining the tank.Wipe overflow clean and put small ammount of glue inside coupling and liberal ammount on that last inch of Overflow Pipe and quickly push coupling down onto Overflow Pipe twisting 1/4 turn until it bottoms on Overflow Pipe. This will allow approx. 1/4"-1/2" more water and still be below Overflow Top which you would have extended 1". Make sure these length extensions do not interfere with the handle. If it does, you'll have to replace the Overflow Assy. . Turn water on and slide float up a little stopping it (Water Level) at about 1/2" to 3/4" below NEW top of Overflow Pipe.This will be above old Water Level Line giving a little more water. If still not enough, glue a short piece of PVC pipe into coupling extending the Overflow further.After extending pipe,you can slide clip/rod up/down until you reach an acceptable water level.

You've already reached the recommended water level,the problem is now water flowing over into Overflow and the incomplete flush. Raising the Overflow Pipe takes care of both.

Replace Handle Assy.,Get Overflow above water level and get enough water for complete flush should take care of it.

Take Care and we'll be here as long as you are, just keep asking. Be sure to open a window for ventilation when glueing pipe if needed and allow pipe to sit overnight to cure before turning water on after glueing.

CoolBreeze

[Edited by CoolBreeze on 03-23-01 at 05:40]
 
 

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