Unconventional Dishwasher Installation Questions

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  #1  
Old 05-19-15, 11:29 PM
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Unconventional Dishwasher Installation Questions

As has been the case the past couple of times I've moved and had to ready my house for sale, I turn to these valuable forums to reach my goals. (Thanks)

This house is over a hundred years old, though it was heavily remodeled in the 40s and again the 60s, plus there were a lot of aesthetic things done by the owner before me. Something this house has lacked is a dishwasher. We've gotten by with a portable and it worked great, but because the market here is kind of flat, we've decided to quickly (and affordably) redo the kitchen and the plan we're using sounds very similar to one I've seen outlined in a couple of previous posts which I found via a search.

Basically, the built-in dishwasher has to be about 7' from the sink and under the sink there's a disposal, plus a reverse osmosis water system, so there's not a ton of room and we'd rather do it without going through the cabinets and behind the stove.

Something very different from the previous person's situation, I have an unfinished basement beneath which gives me access to all of the pipes and drains, plus almost directly below is a storm shelter-like bathroom setup complete with shower and about 20' away (beneath) there's the washer setup. There is also a vent for all of this plumbing, plus the kitchen sink.

Before seeing the previous discussions, because "pretty" isn't as important as affordably functional enough for a sale -- I'm sure their home inspector would point out the unconventionality of any solutions I might have rigged -- my plan had been to put a Y on the washer's hot water line and another on its standpipe. This would mean that you probably wouldn't want to use both the washer and the dishwasher at the same time, but if that's too much of an inconvenience, I figured the future owner could replumb. But now that I've read the previous threads and a couple of other posts from that same search, it sounds like I may need to do something different.

I guess my first question is whether there's a blanket rule that a dishwasher can't drain down? I'd love to just Y it into the washer standpipe or hook it to the drain for basement bathroom sink, or I could cut it into the cast iron drain line, but if a dishwasher absolutely can't drain down or there's no scenario which would allow it to work, then I have to do something else.

Also, while I'm at it, is there a distance limitation for bringing water up from the basement? (Can you bring water up to a dishwasher?) There's the cheapskate washer option I already described, but there are also copper water lines going across under where the dishwasher would be going and almost directly below is the shower setup with exposed and accessible water pipes. Any one of which I could do, if water can come from below.

As always, thanks in advance and any help would be appreciated.
 
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  #2  
Old 05-20-15, 05:06 AM
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No matter what you do, the buyers will want to make their own changes. You can't guess what they will be. Whatever exists will not make or break the sale of the house. I wouldn't change anything.
 
  #3  
Old 05-20-15, 05:58 AM
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Six years ago, when we bought the house, we said that we'll need to do something with the kitchen. When people are looking at it, they're going to think the same thing, so we're going ahead and doing it where when they look at the house, a potential buyer won't see work.

It's too late. Stuff is already happening and other than the surprises, such as the possibility that I might not be able to drain the dishwasher straight down (would a long angle work?) and my need for advice, I don't have any second thoughts. But, thanks for the advice.
 
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Old 05-20-15, 06:09 AM
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This doesn't answer your question as far as draining down, I wouldn't recommend that.

I would run the lines through the cabinets to the sink base cabinet. You have everything you need there.

I would drill holes in the cabinets, directly below the middle shelf. To extend the drain line, you will use 5/8" ID hose if connecting to an air gap, Or 7/8" ID hose if connecting to a disposer inlet. Be sure to use a 5/8" or 7/8" barbed fitting with clamps to extend line.

This method is done all the time. If room is the problem, the RO tank can be removed temporarily. If installed correctly, you should be able to shut off tank and water supply, then reconnect later.
 
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Old 05-20-15, 06:47 AM
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The disposal has the knockout and there is enough room, it'd just seem more crowded because there's already a lot of stuff under there. To me it just seemed easier and less disruptive to come at it from underneath, especially since there's already so much easily accessible plumbing under there. Of course I wanted to be a cheapskate and just Y off of the washer setup, but I could also and just as easily use the plumbing for the bathroom-style sink (or install another trap), if the drain could go straight down and the supply line can come from below.

Right now, I have a couple of days to weigh my options while the floor is getting tiled. If I were to come at it conventionally, keeping everything on the same floor, would 7' be too long of a drain run?
 

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  #6  
Old 05-20-15, 07:03 AM
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You can run drain line 7'. There are 8' braided supply lines available also, although you will have to look around for one (I know Sears has them). You can also use 2 supply lines connected with a 3/8" compression union/coupler.
I wouldn't consider going down. The sink is crowded, but all you're adding is a 3/8" supply line and the drain line. The hoses running through cabinets will not be noticeable and will not effect anything.

Running to the Kitchen sink is the proper way to do this.
 
  #7  
Old 05-20-15, 07:23 AM
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When I bought my house my dishwasher drained down through a hole in the kitchen floor and connected to a drain pipe along the basement wall that fed into the main drain. The dishwasher was old and it wasn’t clear whether (house was empty for a while) the dishwasher worked or not. The wooden floor in front of the dishwasher was somewhat warped. It looked like it had gotten wet over a period of time.

When I tried to use it, it did in fact leak and I got a puddle of water on the floor. So I bought a new dishwasher and installed it myself. Since I am a rank newbie I thought “wow, now that is class, draining the dishwasher straight down to the basement”. LOL. Well after a little investigation I found that is absolutely wrong. All the installation manuals I found for all the dishwashers specify that the there is a height range for the water to be pumped out – not too high and not too low. (I can’t find any of the manuals on my system now, lol). In other words, the dishwasher pump relies on the drain being at a certain height- it is not a matter of taste. Did the old dishwasher leak because it was not draining properly? – I don’t know.

So for the new dishwasher I bit the bullet and drilled through the cabinet and drained under the sink as is proper. I think if you drain your dishwasher down you will absolutely have an incorrect setup which I think would not be helpful to your sale prospects (although I bought my house with an improper setup, but as Pulpo says the dishwasher shouldn’t make or break any deal).
 
  #8  
Old 05-20-15, 07:58 AM
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Thanks for sharing your experience and again, I'm mostly exploring my options. Because the floor is being professionally tiled, it'll be the weekend before I could do much in the kitchen, though I have full access underneath.

The installation guide for the new dishwasher shows one of the possibilities being a through-floor drain into a separate trap (with no other information) and some of the previous threads made it sound like if a trap and vent were available, it would work. Now that I know that 7' isn't too long, staying up-top is still on the table and it sounds like the consensus opinion from those with more experience, but if there were the through-floor possibility, I'm wondering what it'd entail.

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Old 05-20-15, 05:38 PM
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Well I’ll be … and I thought I knew it all! lol. I don’t think I saw that option in any of the dishwashers I looked at, and I looked at a bunch. They all show under the sink. But I guess if you loop up high and then drop down and have a trap I guess they are saying that would work. I guess if you think about, in that case the dishwasher wouldn’t see a difference – I guess, lol.(That’s not what they did in my house, straight down to a pipe and no trap).

But as Handyone says you really aren’t adding much under the sink if you do it that way.
 
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Old 05-20-15, 06:38 PM
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Depends on local authority.. In NJ you cant have a trap below floor..

IMO call your local plumbing inspector and ask him. He will tell you whats allowed...
 
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Old 05-20-15, 07:12 PM
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In your installation picture it shows the drain line going high first. Regardless of where you drain it.... that must be maintained for the dishwasher to work properly.
 
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Old 05-20-15, 07:35 PM
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. Regardless of where you drain it.... that must be maintained for the dishwasher to work properly.
Actually it would be somewhat an S trap and they are not to code IMO..
 
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Old 05-21-15, 05:47 PM
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Thanks. Code is a concern in regards to functionality and it being something a home inspector might note in their report, but there are no permits or building inspections in my jurisdiction, so there would be nobody to call me on it in the short-term.

Still, though I see the vague option on my dishwasher's installation instructions and someone posted a similar image to this forum in 2005, I've now revisited some of the posts I had bookmarked from my previous search and in response to one, I see that you were advising the person to install a standpipe -- it was for an island. With that in mind, now that I look back at the little snip I made from the dishwasher's pdf, I guess that's what they were trying to illustrate and if that's the case, then the 7' line to the sink would probably be the way to go.

Another reason I had sought an alternative, in addition to the distance and crowded undersink is that similar to what was described in those posts I linked from my original comment, we're moving the fridge across the room and rearranging the cabinets. One of the cabinets through which I'll have to drill had been on the end, so it's smooth and varnished birch. If it wasn't going to be difficult and since there's so much accessible plumbing below, I was hoping not to mess it up by drilling through it, in case a future owner wanted to rearrange the cabinets again. (In over a hundred years, lots of people have owned my house and because I'm near a college campus, frequent turnover will probably continue.)

But yeah, I guess we're back to going with the standard installation. I'm still a day or two from getting back into the kitchen and then I have to get electricity to that spot for a dishwasher, if anyone has any other suggestions, but it looks like the reluctantly-installed 7' line is the way to go.

Thanks!
 
  #14  
Old 05-22-15, 07:35 AM
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I assume you certainly know what you are doing with your kitchen layout. But just in case you are not familiar with the “kitchen work triangle” here is a link to the definition. I know it’s not that simple and some homes won’t lend themselves to that configuration and I guess sometimes aesthetics would trump all that anyway. But seems to me it’s a good thing to know:

Kitchen work triangle - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
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Old 05-22-15, 02:31 PM
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Thanks for the link.

That's sort of what we have going, except my counters/appliance-setup is L-shaped. There has never been a dishwasher and there's not enough room to put one between the sink and the stove, so we're putting it on the other side. Our cabinets were built in place, probably in the 60s. For some reason they had two places where a fridge could go, maybe there were two fridges or an upright freezer at one time. When we bought it there was only one and a cabinet under the second high-cabinet/above-fridge location. The fridge that was here was next to a window that's technically in the breakfast area. By moving the fridge to the other location and putting the dishwasher in that place, having a view of the window as you walk in seems to make the room look bigger, or at least that's the theory we have.

Again, thanks for the link.
 
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Old 05-22-15, 03:17 PM
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Sounds like you have it under control and have it all thought through! I guess dealing with a hundred year old plus home can be tricky – but I know there is a market for older homes. I’m partial to the older homes myself, even though my house is only 50 years old. The home across the road from me was built in 1800, and the one next to that a little earlier in the 1780’s. (If I ever hit the lottery I’d buy one of those in a minute, lol).

The folks who live in those older homes I speak of seem to love the challenge of keeping them functional. Seems like there is a market out there – I guess you bought an older home yourself!

Good luck with the sale!

p.s. I had an oven/range that looked like something from the Jetsons (house built in the 60's) that had totally failed. 40 inches wide. What a project trying to find a 40" range- that dimension is ancient history, lol.
 
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