Sink drain/cleanout relocation problem


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Old 07-22-15, 11:06 PM
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Need to notch previously notched studs for drain pipe.

Remodeling the kitchen. What we are looking at is an exterior wall. Need to lower the drain pipe 10 inches. The stud on the right I can replace, however the left two is what I am worried about.

Replacing entire two studs on the left is not an option, I cannot sister the stud on the left side due to obvious reason.

What are the options that I am left with? Fill the empty notch and use buckle plates?

Thanks in advance

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Old 07-23-15, 02:30 AM
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Is there a cellar where the connection to the main drain can be made instead?
 
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Old 07-23-15, 02:56 AM
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How are you going to lower that pipe? It would seem to fall right at the clean out at that point. The only repair I can think of is once you remove the lateral pipe, fill in the notched gap in the studs with tight fitting pieces of wood and overlay all three studs with a mending plate. Not a good idea to run plumbing in a 2x4 wall, but cards are dealt.
 
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Old 07-23-15, 07:24 AM
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I could position the cleanout higher. Would that be a problem? I can also try to lower the clean out a few inches, which will give me enough room to lower the pipe. This was a terrible design in the first place, but I am stuck with it. The house is on a slab on top of all this.
 
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Old 07-26-15, 08:37 AM
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Sink drain/cleanout relocation problem

I need to lower the sink drain at least 4 inches. The house is on a slab. If I keep the white PVC cleanout at this location I would have to manage to get the new T for the drain shoved into the cleanout somehow. I can only lower the cleanout another inch at the most.

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Can I re-position the white PVC cleanout above the T for the sink drain?

Or, can I use a 4 way adapter to replace the current PVC cleanout all together and have the cleanout on one end of the 4 way adapter?

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Any better solutions?

Please assist
 
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Old 07-26-15, 09:18 AM
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You could replace the clean out with ABS clean out and have it run out the exterior wall. Tee would be connected directly to the top of clean out using a short section of pipe.
Currently above clean out, you have several short sections of pipe and a no-hub coupler. These can be eliminated.
The problem is the triple stud. It should have never been notched and now you want to notch them again.

If the trap is too high, there are maybe ways around that.
 
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Old 07-26-15, 09:25 AM
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Tell us more of why you want to lower it? What are you installing?

Yes that double fixture fitting can be used as you describe..

Those 3 studs cut is a major concern. Whats above this space?

I will let the local carpenter know so stand by for his reply..
 
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Old 07-26-15, 09:48 AM
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This looks like a new kitchen cabinet install with a window above the sink.

It will take some careful measurements, but here's a common way to make plumbing fit and not have to lower trap:

Normally, the trap will come out of wall and align under disposer ell. Problem is you need a baffle tee below disposer ell to connect 2nd bowl waste arm.

Instead of aligning trap under disposer, you can redirect it so that it is directly under 2nd bowl.
If you get lucky, you now have the height to have a baffle tee above trap, and from the baffle tee, a horizontal run to the disposer instead of the disposer elbow. This saves quite a few inches in height.
 
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Old 07-26-15, 10:24 AM
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This has a thread going on the basic same subject, in which advice was given on the stud repair, but we still don't know WHY the piping needs lowering that much. If it is for a low disposal, rethink why you need one, or if you need one at all. If you are on a septic system, you don't want one.

http://www.doityourself.com/forum/fr...rain-pipe.html
 
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Old 07-26-15, 11:28 AM
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Put a regular tee cleanout there and aim it into the room....
 
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Old 07-26-15, 11:29 AM
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The previous thread was to address the stud issue that I was concerned with. I don't know why they routed plumbing like they did, but my concern was with structural integrity of the studs. I am going to be replacing one stud and reinforcing the second and third with metal plates and brackets.

I figured I would post the plumbing concern here since the framing was addressed. Was not intending to double post. Just wanted and appropriate question to be in appropriate section. But I digress.


Here is my setup.

New sink is 9&5/8 inches deep, garbage disposal drain is 6 inches below the sink. Right now the center of the drain pipe is 22 inches above the floor.

From the floor to the countertop I have 36inches.

I am planning on running one drain instead of two. If I do not have to notch the studs, I am for it, because then I can use pipe shoe plates to reinforce them.


I will post some more pictures of the kitchen shortly when I get to a computer.

Thanks for the help so far guys.
Nik
 
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Old 07-26-15, 11:48 AM
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That pipe with the clean out. what drains down that from upstairs?
 
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Old 07-26-15, 11:56 AM
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I merged these threads... less confusing...
 
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Old 07-26-15, 12:04 PM
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Thank you.

Nothing drains down it except the kitchen sink. It's a vent pipe going up. From what I can tell. The main drain for upstairs bathrooms is in another part of the house
 
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Old 07-26-15, 12:23 PM
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Forget my previous reply. At 22" center height, the drain is too high even if you align trap with non-disposer sink bowl as I suggested.

The tee and trap must be lowered.

I would recommend you run new pipe outside of walls and through cabinets. It's done all the time.
If the tee is behind a planned or existing dishwasher, look at options for moving dishwasher to the right of sink.
 
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Old 07-26-15, 12:33 PM
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If thats two sink arms I see you cant do that...Either a vent needs to be added or one arm removed. Code is one trap per fixture...

Use a center or side waste...

Going outside the studs and fixing them is the best advice...


[ATTACH=CONFIG]53804[/ATTACH]
 
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Old 07-26-15, 12:55 PM
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The dishwasher is on the right side of the sink.

My plan is to remove one arm and just leave the one on the left below the left sink basin. The right side of the sink will have the garbage disposal.

Will I need a p trap for garbage disposal and the left sink basin? Or is it ok to bring the garbage disposal above the p trap for the left side of the sink?

Here is a picture of the wall. Handyone was spot on as far as the setup goes.

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As far as bringing it outside of the cabinet, that's actually a doable procedure. The clean out is behind the cabinet that slides out and holds pots and pans. So I can actually make a nice access panel for the clean out (there was no way to access it previously, believe it or not) and bring the pipe just past the studs.

That said, what is the best way to reposition clean out and lower the pipe? I still have only 2&1/2 inches between the tee and the clean out, so it will not lower it enough. lawrosa mentioned a regular tee clean out, are they shorter?
 
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Old 07-26-15, 01:24 PM
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Will I need a p trap for garbage disposal and the left sink basin? Or is it ok to bring the garbage disposal above the p trap for the left side of the sink?
If you need the height do away with the ellbow that comes with the disposal.. Run a straight tailpieice like shown here to a side waste..





Here is the side waste you will use... Note removing the ell as I show above and cutting that lower part of the tee you can gain many many inches in height..






As far as bringing it outside of the cabinet, that's actually a doable procedure.

Since 1 1/2 line if you replaced the studs and drilled properly you can keep it in the wall...

But Chandler needs to chime in as that may hold up a header... Although sinks are in front of windows all the time...

The clean out is behind the cabinet that slides out and holds pots and pans. So I can actually make a nice access panel for the clean out (there was no way to access it previously, believe it or not) and bring the pipe just past the studs.
As I stated change that Y to a tee cleanout. It will be shorter and get you lower and stick out past the studs..

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Old 07-26-15, 01:39 PM
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Thank you.

That tee will actually give me around 4 more inches.

If you notice, my PVC Y is coupled with rubber gaskets. Should I go for ABS and glue it together? loosing the couplers will give me another 2+ inches.

Just to recap on the stud situation:

I will be replacing the one on the right (its below the window) The two on the left, I cannot replace. Best I can do is reinforce them with metal plates. So one stud on the left will be partially sistered by the new stud I put in. That will leave one as is.

If it is possible for me to keep all of this in the wall, then that's the route I will take. Push comes to shove, I will take the advise of running it outside of the wall.

If I can go through existing studs (after reinforcing previous cut) I can use this to reinforce the new cut:

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I will wait for him to chime in.
 
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Old 07-26-15, 01:52 PM
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If you notice, my PVC Y is coupled with rubber gaskets. Should I go for ABS and glue it together? loosing the couplers will give me another 2+ inches.
Use those couplings. Its code and its the only way you will be able to do what you intend. Those couplers are rubber underneath. You will need to roll them back to fit the new tee/clean out.

To glue it would be impossible or a nightmare with glue slip couplings..
 
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Old 07-26-15, 02:43 PM
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The protector is good for single studs, but the lip may prevent multiple installations. If not too expensive, I would try them.
 
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Old 07-26-15, 03:26 PM
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I actually found some without the lip at Lowes. And I can fit them on each stud.

So based on what you see chandler, can I go through the studs with proper metal brackets, replacing the one on the right and by reinforcing previous cuts?
 

Last edited by defiance; 07-26-15 at 04:20 PM.
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Old 07-26-15, 05:50 PM
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Do yourself a favor and run the pipe through the cabinets. It's harder when installing the cabinets but you can get plenty of tips here on the best way to make your cuts.

The clean out can be lowered by directly gluing it to house drain. Above that, the sanitary tee can be directly glued to top of clean out using a short (1-3/4") section of pipe.

My goal when faced with this is to angle the tee to where a 22.5 or 45 degree elbow coming out of the tee will run parallel with the wall or a little away from the wall.

As far as repairing the studs, that can be done after the pipe is relocated and you will get help.

Just no drawers or roll outs left of sink and you are done.
 
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Old 07-26-15, 06:04 PM
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Brian,

The cabinets are already built, but luckily, the cabinet where the pipe would come out, is designed with slide out for pots and pans, so there would not be interference there.

So ultimately it would be in the corner of that cabinet, with the elbow from the tee immediately going through the side into the cabinet with the sink.


I would have preferred the pipe not visible, but, not much I can do I suppose. On the other hand, I would have had to cut the cabinet anyways, because the clean out was never accessible in the first place.

I could also box off the pipe in the cabinet..just a thought, but I guess thats something I would look at after its all done.
 
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Old 07-26-15, 06:32 PM
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Welcome to the world of cabinet installation. This is the best of both worlds. You'll be able to access the clean out and place trap at proper height. The only way you will be able to see any exposed pipe at the rear of cabinets is to get down on your knees. Saving the roll outs is key.

If the clean out can't be directly glued to house plumbing (cast iron), you can use a no-hub. You will still lose very little height.
 
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Old 07-26-15, 06:43 PM
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Its all abs. lawrosa mentioned that by code, I need to use the flex couplings. I have had no issues gluing pvc for my pool pump, abs would be no different. Based on what I'm reading for other states (unable to find South Carolina) you can use either or as far as couplings go. However, I will most likely need to use the rubber coupling to connect the top part of the pipe due to alignment issues. But back to what lawrosa said, any other reason I should not glue down the clean out?

Every inch matters, I am planning on changing the counters to granite and using an under mount sink next year, which will lower the sink another inch.
 
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Old 07-26-15, 06:51 PM
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Its all abs. lawrosa mentioned that by code, I need to use the flex couplings.
I meant they are up to code..

You can glue what you want or can, but still need two couplings to fit the final piece...
 
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Old 07-26-15, 07:01 PM
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I gotcha. Once removed I will be able to tell what I can accomplish. It's a tight spot for sure. This drain design looks like something they forgot about and had to put in last minute.....

thanks for all the input guys

Nik
 
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Old 07-27-15, 06:51 AM
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I have a question for Lawrosa.

I've seen clean outs outside of the wall. I don't really like the look but was wondering if it up to code. I don't have a picture.

Basically the tee comes out of wall and angles into the sink base cabinet. Inside the sink base, you have a Y fitting with a plug before the trap.

If this is OK, you can lower the tee and trap no problem.
 
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Old 07-27-15, 07:58 AM
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Cleanout like this are common but not normally installed... The y gets turned up 45 degrees



In new construction we put them in the wall somewhere in or outside. Get the proper cap so you can install the traditional cover cap with center screw hole.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]53865[/ATTACH]

Shows cast but PVC same..

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Old 07-27-15, 08:01 AM
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So ultimately what is my best solution?

After taking measurements, I can easily keep the clean out at the same location and still drop the pipe without a problem.

One problem I see with the clean out under the sink is it would be harder to navigate down to the main line due to the tee on the main line?

PS disregard the image, lawrosa beat me to the reply.
 
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Old 07-27-15, 08:15 PM
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Soooo, this king and jack are toast. This required an epic amount of stupidity to accomplish.....

Lets talk about fixing this mess.

As much as I wish I could, I cannot replace king and jack. I can replace the third stud, which is a cripple.

Can I simply finish cutting off the stud and Splice a new stud and reinforce with metal plates on each side? Plus use a new cripple as a sister? There is seriously nothing holding the two parts at this point anyways. The first stud you see has a cut going through pretty much all the way through. Maybe 2-3 mm of wood that has not been cut.

Maybe construct some header structure below the studs?

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Would something like this work?

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Last edited by defiance; 07-27-15 at 08:39 PM.
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Old 07-28-15, 02:58 AM
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What will be your new pipe routing? I am assuming the vent will be reconnected, but will the area cut out have pipes running through them? If not, see post #3. A 2x4 with a hole in it to accommodate the vent pipe won't be much of a bridge.
 
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Old 07-28-15, 09:25 AM
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That vent pipe has no where to go. The drain to the sink I can run outside of the wall .

Maybe I can elbow the vent pipe out? I have room above the wall cabinets to possibly glue some 90s. Then I can run a partial sister stud

Any suggestions on how to minimize the demo damage to the area and get them completely replaced? Can I do it without taking the cabinet down completely ?

How do I go about attaching the new king stud to the header? The vent pipe is right beside it, and the cabinet is going to prevent me from using a nail gun or impact driver.
 

Last edited by defiance; 07-28-15 at 10:33 AM.
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Old 07-28-15, 12:22 PM
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See Chandler's reply of today above.

Run the tee and drain outside of wall as discussed. You don't need to replace any studs, just fill them in with blocks as Chandler posted in #3. Tight fitting blocks and shims if needed, plus the plates he mentioned.
This was a real bad idea to cut through the triple 2x4's, but your house won't fall down. The other adjacent components of wall, sheathing, etc. help to keep the wall from sagging.

Your idea of a header is not really needed, but is good in some cases.
 
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Old 07-28-15, 01:43 PM
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Sounds good. That's what I will go with then.
 
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Old 07-28-15, 09:22 PM
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So here is just a mock set up.

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The pvc pipe will be much shorter, just picked up what i had laying around.

The clean out plug will be changed to the one with a screw so it can have a nice plate.

I want to make the cabinet still removable if needed, so I am thinking about running the abs a few inches into the cabinet then switching to a pvc with an elbow that I can remove and reinsert if needed. Example pictured above.


Another idea is to use some 90's and wrap around the studs to bring it back into the wall. I may loose less space that way.


Any other ideas?
 
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Old 07-29-15, 07:05 AM
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Don't use 90's to wrap around and go back into wall. The sink base cabinet will be fine with a pipe coming in from the left. You're losing some space in the cabinet, but it's a must.

cabinet still removable
I have never installed a base cabinet that was intended to be removed?

It's best to come out of tee with an ABS elbow and direct pipe into sink base. If you want cabinet to be removable, cut slots in the back to allow cabinet to be slid against wall and over pipes. You have to do this anyway to fit the cabinet in.

The sink base doesn't need a slot cut in back. You will determine exactly where your ABS elbow will enter sink base and use a hole saw for boring the side of sink base.
 
 

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