All of a sudden I discovered some dripping from the kitchen ceiling on to the counter/stove below. I cut open part of the ceiling with a jab saw (first pic). The sheetrock was already water sogged and parts of it came crashing down. I suspect this leak has been going on for days or weeks. When I poked my head through the ceiling hole for a closer look, I noticed the water was coming from different places of the plywood above. Some of it was leaking down from where the pipes run into the plywood, though there are some other places also, see pics. In these pics, there is one copper and one PVC pipe. Both are going up into the plywood above. Right above the kitchen is the bathroom with a ceramic tile floor. I'm assuming that the ceramic tile sits above the plywood I saw from the kitchen ceiling hole.

I did not notice any leaky pipes, elbows or joints that were visible in the space between the ceiling and the plywood. Also, I did not find any obvious leaks in the bathroom above, which contains the sinks, toilet, shower and bathtub, each with their own fixtures. So the source of the leak is a complete mystery to me. There is a drip every few seconds. It doesn't get faster or slower when any of the faucets, shower or flush are used. How should I go about investigating where the leak is coming from? I'm stumped. Any help or ideas will be appreciated.

Anup

 

I'm tempted to say that this is a copper supply line leak, since it leaks at a constant rate. Maybe a pinhole leak.
What does the 1-1/2" PVC pipe serve? There's obvious water around that.

Also, can you post a picture of the shower pan.

 

Yeah, lets see pictures of the bathroom. Could be multiple possible sources. Curious why only one supply line and not two which is normal. The only place you see a single is at the toilet, but a toilet is not serviced by a 1 1/2" drain line. That size line is either for the tub or vanity.

 

Handyone and czizzi, thanks for responding.

Let me say right off the bat that the area of the leak is right underneath the toilet. Most of the water drip is at the 1.5" pipe at the plywood. I don't know the purpose of this pipe, nor can I tell where it is coming from and where it is going. I agree, it is not related to the toilet, other than the fact that it is in close proximity to the toilet. The single supply pipe is indeed going into the toilet. The toilet drain is the 3.5" PVC pipe, a pic I had not posted previously. The sinks also seem to drain into this 3.5" pipe (see pic below). Water is dripping through the gap between this 3.5" pipe and the plywood as well. I am posting more pics in this reply, as well as pics of the bathroom. In each pic I tried to capture 2 fixtures at a time to show their relative placement. I couldn't get a pic of the shower drain because it is hidden from view by a kitchen closet/pantry wall. It is several feet away from the leak. The twin sinks and the bathtub are also several feet away. I suspect there is one source of the leak, the water is spreading over the plywood and making its way down through the cracks between the plywood and pipes, except for one instance where it is not through a crack (see pic attached in the original post).

 

This will probably take some time to look at all the possibilities.
For now, I would go straight to the toilet wax ring. If it is or isn't the problem, removing and replacing the toilet with a new wax ring is relatively easy.

 

We have had rain on the east coast this past week. Have you inspected the roof vent boots lately? It would explain mysterious drips around drain pipes with no apparent source.

Wouldn't hurt to pull and reset the toilet, although if it was a toilet leak, I would expect to see the majority of the drips around the 3 1/2" pipe, not the 1 1/2". The 1 1/2" also appears to use a couple of street ells that go in opposite directions which leads me to believe it is a vent line.

It maybe shadows but there is some discoloration to the floor around the toilet. I assume it is vinyl sheet goods and not tile.

 

Thank you, Handyone and czizzi. I have a feeling it is the wax ring. A couple of days ago I noticed the sound of water filling the toilet bowl for a few seconds and then the sound stopped. It left me wondering what caused the bowl to empty partially. It happened just once.

The second thing I'd like to mention is that silicon sealant exists between the toilet base and the bathroom floor so leaks due to the wax ring will not appear on the bath floor, which is not vinyl sheet but ceramic tile. I did not see any stains when I took the previous pictures. However, czizzi piqued my curiosity and I took a look all round the base. Towards the back of the toilet (which is not normally visible) there is some spillage/leakage of an orange substance that runs down the junction between the tank and base, all the way to the floor. Could it be a deteriorating seal that is orange in color? The attached picture has been taken sideways.

As further experimentation, I shut off the water supply to the toilet with the intent of emptying the tank and the bowl, to see if the drip continues. When I flushed the toilet, the bowl only partially emptied, the rest of the water just swirled around. Is that another unrelated issue?

Yes, there were rains last week on the east coast but it has been dry for a few days. I would have expected the dripping to subside during dry days.

 

The redish orange is mildew. You have a bad seal between the bowl and tank. Determine the make of the toilet and go get the appropriate gasket and probably new tank bolts while you are at it. If ceramic, the discolored grout is the first indication of moisture present in that area.

 

In that last picture it looks like the tank to toilet bolts are leaking as well as the tank gasket. That would allow water to run down the back of the toilet. However, that would show up at the 3-1/2" line.

 

I like the idea that a vent pipe is taking in water. I also like the idea of the wax ring going bad.

As mentioned, rebuild the tank, and install a new wax ring. Post back if you have trouble installing the tank to bowl preformed sponge washer, the washer can be difficult to compress and there's a few tricks. You don't want to crack the tank by over tightening.

IF the wax ring has failed, it will dump maybe a few cups of water into the subfloor area. This water will spread out and drip from other locations. I don't know of anything else that will dump this much water upon failure, maybe a shower membrane full of water, or bad copper pipe.

Hopefully it is the toilet or vent lines, both pretty easy to fix without destroying the bathroom.

 

Ok, I have some more information and evidence. I had shut off the water supply to the toilet last night. This morning, there was no evidence of further drips. So it is at least narrowed down to the toilet.

I turned the water supply back on again to see what would happen. After a few minutes, there were still no drips in the kitchen but I saw water seeping down between the junction of the tank and the bowl (in the back) right down the trail of the orange residue. The water had then traveled down to the grout groove and continued to where the floor meets the vertical tile on the wall. From that point on the water traveled on the right hand side along the floor/wall junction and headed right underneath the vanity. See attached pics. The second pic shows the edge of the vanity but doesn't clearly show the water entering through the gap.

The junction between the floor and the wall may not have been well sealed, and what is behind the vanity is not even visible. Eventually the water must have made its way to the subfloor causing drips in various places, and not necessarily at the 3.5" drain pipe. Eventually, I saw the drip appear in the kitchen at the 1.5" vent pipe. Drips at other places have not started yet, though I suspect that if I give it enough time, I'll see drips at other places too in the kitchen ceiling. Let me comment that the 1.5" pipe is closest to the vanity, and the copper pipe and the 3.5" pipe are further away.

What I gather from this is that at least the seal between the tank and the bowl should be replaced.The last time I replaced it was some 3 years ago. Home Depot sells "universal" seals. Should I ensure that the seal is made by the manufacturer of the toilet?

I did not see any water leakage by the bolts that secure the tank to the bowl. With all the evidence presented above, is it enough to replace the tank/bowl seal and nothing else? At the very least I can start with this, and consider further replacement of the bolts and wax ring if the kitchen drip continues. It also sounds like I should seal the floor/wall junction as well as any gaps between the vanity and the floor.

 

Yes, get the correct sponge washer. They're hard enough to get installed correctly without using the wrong one.

I would drain the tank, sponge it out, and wait for a "professional" plumbing store to open tomorrow. Replace the flush valve, tank to bowl sponge washer and bolt kit.

 

Those tank gaskets usually last for decades, your "universal" only gave you 3 years. I would get one specific for the toilet you own. Hopefully, you can get a brand name off the bowl and a model number out of the inside of the tank.

 

Ok, that's what I'll do. It is American Standard. The inside of the tank is stamped "4078 Tank" and T89, which I'm assuming means it was manufactured in '89, the same year the house was built. Thanks for your help.

 

Based on your recommendation, I went to a professional plumbing store and bought a kit (see attached pic). It includes 2 different sizes of the sponge washer. I'm assuming one of them will fit. Will try to work on it during the weekend.

 

It's probably the one on the left if the toilet is an old American Standard.

I would advise you change the flush valve also while you have the tank off, you don't want to do this twice.

 

Handyone, I agree with you. I picked up an American Standard flush valve from the same professional store, see pic. It has a 3" hole and 3.75" plastic octagonal nut He told me it should fit the 4078 tank. When I brought it home and held it against the old flush value (I haven't taken anything apart yet), it looked big in comparison to the old one. I may have to remove the old one and take it back to the store to get a better match. However, before I remove it, I may have to pick up a spud wrench. Some of the octagonal nuts tightened many years ago may become stubborn to remove.

 

I'm not familiar with tank numbers and parts required.
The "old" American Standards do have a smaller flush valve than the one pictured.

If I were fixing one, I would expect to see the sponge washer you pictured on the left, and a smaller flush valve ~3" nut.

 

I finally got a chance to remove the tank from the bowl. The old flush value looks fine (see pic). It is indeed smaller than what I obtained from the professional store. I am also attaching pictures of the tank to bowl opening, with no seal, the old seal, the new smaller size seal and the new bigger size seal. Notice that the old seal color is reddish, which is like the color of the stain running down the outside of the bowl (I posted this pic earlier). Apparently, water was escaping underneath the old seal and down the outside of the bowl. Should I be using the new smaller or bigger size seal?

 

The smaller seal looks to be the correct one but use the size of the hole in the center of the seal as a guide. Use the seal which is most snug, without forcing, which fits over the outlet of the flush valve (under the large spud nut). You don't want the gasket too large so as not make a good seal or too small, whereby the outlet doesn't go through the hole. Also, I invariably use a smear of plumbers grease over rubber washers/seals/gaskets when replacing them.

 

I went back to the professional store with my old fill valve. That's when they told me the part is discontinued by American Standard but they could sell me a generic product. Both Andy and Handyone have suggested using the smaller seal between the tank and the bowl. Indeed the smaller seal is contoured to better fit the hole, even though the hole sizes between and small and the large size seal are the same.

 

Ok, I finally put together the new parts. There is no more leak between the tank and the bowl. However, I'm running into a frustrating issue on the supply side, see pic (it is shown sideways). There was a small leak at the mounting nut just underneath the tank. I tightened it. The leak disappeared but then a leak appeared at the supply side coupling nut. I tightened it and a leak appeared again at the mounting nut. This went back and forth for a while. Then I got a grip on the mounting nut with a locking wrench and used a different wrench for the coupling nut so that tightening one of them doesn't undo the other. Each time I think this will be the last tightening sequence and it isn't. There remains a very tiny leak at the coupling nut regardless. Should I keep tightening it? I'm just afraid that overtightening may break it, or is it that since there a leak it means it is not tight enough? I realize this is elementary for most of you, but quite frustrating for me. I would have liked to be done already.

 

Well,you have come this far, might as well complete the update of the toilet to all seals at this point. The gasket for the fill valve is located on the inside of the tank while the washer for supply hose is inside the tightening nut. Get yourself a Fluidmaster 400 fill valve and replace the whole unit. It will come with all the gaskets. When attaching the overflow tube off the fill valve, make sure you use the mounting attachment and cut it to the appropriate size. I would also replace the stainless supply hose. If you are re-using the old, the gasket may have been deformed after years of being in the same tight position. They are not that expensive. But overall, good job tackling this yourself.

 

Over tightening the supply line will cause leaks. Tightening it more will only make it worse.
Hand tight plus 1/4 turn is all you need.

 

I went to Home Depot to get parts. I showed the picture of the supply hose for better visualization. The guy said this is your problem. The bent hose when reinstalled doesn't bear the same spatial relationship (I'm paraphrasing this) as it did with the original installation and is thereby exerting unequal force around the circumference of the coupling nut and thread junction. He suggested I buy a longer hose and make a loop in the middle so that the bend doesn't appear close to either end. That's what I did (see new pic, appears sideways) and the leak disappeared. I thought I'd wait 2 or 3 days to ensure that the leak is indeed completely gone. It has and I'm declaring the toilet issue fixed. Thank you everyone for your ideas and suggestion. They have worked out well for me. Now patching the hole in the kitchen ceiling is another story. I'll wait for a couple of weeks before tackling this.

Anup