Our house is a one story with 950 sq. ft. and an accessible crawlspace that was built in 1955. We'd like to go with PEX, and would like to move the kitchen sink to an adjacent wall eight feet away. Is this bid reasonable for a re-pipe? The plumber said there was no need to replace the cast iron main drain going out of the house. Thanks.

Brandon

 

I do finish plumbing in kitchens and baths and am not a pro plumber, I don't do any serious re-pipes. The bid seems high to me.
California has a lot of slab leaks and many homes require re-piping.
I think the going rate is around $6K - $8K, that includes fixing/texturing all walls.

A crawlspace makes the job easier vs a slab re-pipe, so the price is too much IMO.

Also be sure you need a full re-pipe. My house is 1956 and I have no plans to swap out any copper unless absolutely needed or to make a new install easier.

It's no fun in a crawlspace, but you might be able to do a lot of this work yourself.

 

IMO, that is very pricey for PEX work. We've done a LOT of renovations have several houses and multiple rental units. Here is what I would call a generous estimate of costs for "Service 1 - 8 fixtures". Let's give it a full three days for two plumbers. So that's $40 x 8 hours x 2 guys x 3 days = $1920 labor. Plus materials @ $300. A total of $2220 - not $4800.

I am ASSUMING that it might be a real pain to work in that crawlspace, and that is why I am giving this a full 3 days for two guys. In reality, this would probably be done in two days (or less). I have personally run thousands of feet of PEX. It really is quite simple and a lot gets done pretty quickly.

You may wish to do some of this yourself. Even most of it. I promise you that I hadn't touched PEX before 9 years ago and it is very easy to pick up and do very well.

I would humbly recommend that you splurge just a tiny bit - and use Pex-A instead of the more common Pex-B. The former costs just a bit more but on a job of your size that's not much. A is MUCH easier to work with, especially with the 3/4" trunks. The less time spent in a crawlspace the better, right?

All ball valves need to be rated lead free (yellow labels on handles) where they deal with potable water. So, pretty much everything except your washing machine and the hose bibs for the lawn. The latter allows for red handles (a slight savings).

Really the trickiest bit is taking the time to figure out your design and counting up all the 90s, Ts, shut-off valves, etc- and making a really good shopping list.

For that second thing - redoing the bathroom. We really like the Delta rough-in valves, especially the one's that are "WITH STOPS" (no additional shutoffs needed). It is great to avoid needing an access panel for the shower supply lines. There are some really nice trim options to pick from.

 

Thanks for the response, Handyone. There is some copper that was added at some point along the way. It's really a hodgepodge down there. The line coming in from the street is copper but it is attached to galvanized. I don't know how old the galvanized is. We have a lead drum trap connected to the tub. The drain from the edge of the foundation out to the street is PVC but from the foundation in it is cast iron.

I think the reasons for me leaping immediately to a re-pipe are:
-pressure is too high at the bibs (over 90) for galvanized of undetermined age, which makes me fearful of a burst
-bathroom sink drain that doesn't seem to be sloped correctly (the line after the p-trap to the main drain is horizontal or maybe even at a slightly upward angle and extends 8-10 in.)
-tub hot and cold valves are terrible. They have to be 'rebuilt' (i have to replace a piece of rubber that is screwed on the end of the valve for a friction fit seal) every few months. Even then the leaking doesn't completely stop.
-sewer gas smell (which may be coming from the bathroom sink) that increases when the washing machine drains.
-when the washing machine drains, the drain fills up and spills over just a little bit.
-the kitchen sink drain has been cobbled together (with the help of some fine folk from this forum) with a connection of rubber clamped hose between PVC from the sink to a galvanized street ell and then on to the cast iron drain line. This is likely a temporary fix.

 

Thanks for the insights regarding the PEX A vs B and rough-in valves with stops, jefferson17.

You can walk on your hands and knees in the crawlspace, and at some point someone spread old carpet out down there too.

I'll think about doing some of this myself but I have to say that relocating the sink and the washing machine scare me.

 

$40/hr for plumbers? I think that would require a time machine.

 

Hey Denver,

Sorry - I thought I had posted a response earlier but this didn't seem to happen.

You can TOTALLY DO THIS. It will definitely be helpful to have help for the PVC portion. Try to find a journeyman plumber on craigslist, etc (or through a neighbor) for a Saturday for $35-40/ hour cash. You and he can bang all that PVC out. And you'll learn a lot.

The PVC should usually go in before any PEX (PVC doesn't flex -PEX is easily be installed around PVC). It seems from what you wrote that there may be inadequate venting, so this is a good time to design the new system with lots of venting.

90 PSI? Really? Wow. That's impressive. Seriously.

You may wish to consider if you might want a hot water recirculator. You'll get hot water to the shower head / sinks in about 3-4 seconds. This is the time to think about it, as I'm guessing you won't want to crawl around down there in the future.

 

LOL, Steve_Gro. I live in Boulder and I don't think anyone is under $150. I get $50 as a handyman.

 

I appreciate the time people have taken to respond. It'd would be great to hear from the professional plumbers, too. Thanks.

Brandon

 

If you go back up to the labor calculation and plug in a higher number you'll get a closer result to what you have received.

2 plumbers x 3 (8 hr) days = 48 hrs @ $150/hr = $7200 + materials + P&O (profit & overhead).

But let's say they can bang it out in 2 days:

2 plumbers x 32 hrs @ $150/hr = $4800 + materials + P&O.

And if you find a cheap outfit that can do it in 2 days:

2 plumbers x 32 hrs @ $100/hr = $3200 + materials + P&O.

Buy the best and you cry only once.

 

To give you another opinion (and opinion only), I think the price is within reason.

I had priced out a whole house replumb a few years back and it was $8-10K in NJ. So I wasn't too surprised by your quote. Though the best way to find out if a contractor is priced reasonably is to get a second (or third) quote.

One thing that did raise a flag for me was the 50% down payment. I wouldn't pre-pay that much to a contractor as there are way too many stories about contractors taking money and skipping out. I would pay a max 10% down, and maybe more once the materials are onsite. If it's a big project, you can discuss milestone payments, but with a project of this size it probably isn't necessary.

I would also look into permits. Permits protect you and your house. With a rather large project like this, most locales will require permits to be pulled by the plumber.

 

Is that 30 day expiration for the bid normal, or is that high pressure salesmanship? Seems like a good company would give you a bid good for longer than 30 days – but I could be wrong. I don’t have much experience with plumbing bids.

Just thinking – that together with the 50% down might be a red flag.

 

I agree with Zorfdt and Steve Gro, that bid is at least in the ball park. I also think that 50% down is way too much of a down payment. Getting additional bids is always a good idea. Be sure that any contract you sign states the contractor WILL obtain all permits and inspections required by the local authority having jurisdiction as well as providing statements from the material suppliers that they have been paid.

 

In my response I said the bid was too high, I would like to change that and agree with all the above.

I'm used to re-pipe meaning water supply piping only/bypass a slab leak. I overlooked you are getting both supply and waste lines, that changes things.

I will gladly pay a plumber $100/hr or more to get a job done right.

 

Plumber 35 plus years. That is a good price. If you like the guy and they give you some type of warranty...Go for it....

Just my opinion..


I did a crawl space home on the island LBI here in NJ. all new fixtures,( all new faucets) crawl space, 4 bath... water pipe only...14,000...

So compare..

It took me alone 3 days..

 

Don't mean to beat the horse. Lawrosa makes good money and that's a fact

You should understand the difference between a plumber fixing a leak and charging $120.00 per hour or hooking up a sink and faucet and ensuring you have no problems for years.

To me the 120 goes out the window when doing finish work, it's much more for the plumber. You want everything in order and no leaks or worries or maintenance.

With finish work and making customer happy, you are talking many hundreds per hour.
Basically it's the job and not per hour.

 

That 50% down would not be legal in CA. We're limited to 10%, or at least we were -- I'm retired. I would often write a contract to specify something like 25% upon delivery of materials, which were often 25% or better.

 

Agreed, no homeowner should ever put 50% down. Zorfdt mentioned that also.

If you pay a scam artist 50% that's all they need. They have no plans to do any work.

A typical payment would be 10% down upon signing the contract (with 3 days to cancel if signed in your home and not a place of business).
The other payments would be 30% each: Upon arrival of material, upon start of work, at completion After being satisfied.

 

Despite all the second guessing, have you received at least 2 additional bids so that you have something to compare with?

Nobody is going to be able to tell you what is high or low because you are the only one in the area where the work will be done.

Get the other quotes and then we can dissect them to see what is/is not reasonable.

 

Thanks for all the feedback.

I have a total of two bids so far, and the one I began the thread with was regarding the second. The first bid was via email and was a one liner saying this exactly, "One Bath Home Water & Drain Re-Pipe with & Tub/Shower Valves 25 Years Parts & 2 Year Labor" $8,764.00

The first company I found on Home Advisor and the second on Angie's list.

I'll get one or two more bids before making a decision. We should also think about having some of the work done one year and some more the next. Basically, everything but moving the sink and washing machine the first year and then doing those two things the next if we still want to at that time.

14k for three days of work...I'm in the wrong field.

 

You know, another way to go could be to try to do the minimum and address the things that are broken now:
-the shower faucets
-the slope on the sink drain
-the overflowing washing machine drain

For the shower faucets, it looks like there are no valve seats in the hot and cold faucets. Rather, it looks like what you'd see if you were to fit one pipe within another and looked through it--there's just the end of the smaller copper pipe but no seat. Sadly, I have no pictures.

For the slope on the sink drain, the drain pipe coming from the wall is galvanized so I'm not sure I could fix it myself. Remember, this pipe is horizontal at best. It could also be at a slightly upward angle as well, which just seems wrong to me.

For the overflowing washing machine drain, I could run a snake down through it and see if I can clear it on my own. Who knows, I might get lucky there.

I'd be taking my chances on the high pressure and galvanized of undetermined age though. Plus there would be no moving the kitchen sink or washing machine.

 

I think this Bid has done you a good service !

What it forced you to do is to logically break down your entire big and overwhelming plumbing problem into of its individual constituent parts . . . . and now, the sum of the parts doesn't seem to add up to the quote that you were given to solve the whole problem.

It's as if someone saw you as an "easy mark" due to your being interested in having all of your perceived problems wiped away in one fell swoop !

They shouldn't have given you so much time to "think about it" !