Finished my water treatment plans! Would appreciate any advice. Pictures, model,
#1
03-18-18, 01:48 PM
Finished my water treatment plans! Would appreciate any advice. Pictures, model,
Like the title says, I finally finished my plans for upgrading my water treatment system. I'd love to hear your input since while I have done some relevant work here and there, I'm not a professional and a lot of this is new to me. Long thread incoming....
Water
Water comes from a well in Maryland. I had it tested and have testing records from the previous owner going back about 30 years. Too bad I can't find them... I'll update this when I do, but in general:
- High iron levels - I believe they were ~10 mg/L
- Moderate hardness, even after correcting for iron levels.
- Small amount of... other things. Sorry. Nothing that demands correction.
- Flow rate is ~7 GPM right now, but I am considering upgrading the pump.
Design
Here are some of the thoughts that have guided my plan:
- Iron and hardness removal are primary goals, but there is an element of 'general treatment' to account for the various contaminants that are present in small levels or that aren't tested for.
- On a related note, I have a strong preference for treatments which don't add anything to the water. That's unavoidable in some cases, but I aim for it where possible.
- CPVC is used within the treatment system, copper is used after treatment and within the house, PEX for outdoor faucets.
- I've done my best to minimize flow restriction wherever possible.
- Easily disassembly and part reuse is something I'm willing to pay a bit extra for.
- A male garden hose threat outlet is present at every point in the treatment to allow for water sampling, pressure testing, and component bypass via a drinking water quality hose.
- Copper Tube Size pipes and NPT threads have been used thoughout, except for the connection to the pressure switch. I'm hoping I didn't miss any...
Documentation
Regarding the images and model, I've used the largest expected dimensions for all components, so the actual build should be a bit more compact.
- Here is a 3d model built in SketchUp: https://drive.google.com/open?id=1N_...Ql5ABZ8bcjgbi4
- Here are a few pictures of the model: https://photos.app.goo.gl/vuB1IYy17rTdscd23
- Here is a spreadsheet with the parts list: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...it?usp=sharing
Notes and Concerns
I've got quite a few things I'm not terribly happy with or sure about. I've done my best, would appreciate any insights! Here they are, generally following the flow of the water, with some overall stuff first.
- For pricing, I can get 15% off at Lowe's, 10% at Home Depot, and 5% at Amazon, so I lean toward them.
- I have a **lot** of union ball valves in the design to allow for bypassing and easy disassembly. The price of what I have planned is worth it to me, but I'd be very happy to streamline things a bit.
- I prefer long sweep elbows and tees where possible, but I can't find any for CTS CPVC. Spears has some for Schedule 80 CPVC, but I don't want to transition just for that.
- I have the pressure switch after the Rusco prefilter to protect the switch a bit. I know this is generally not recommended, but I do have the pressure relief valve before it.
- I am planning on going with a 1000 mesh (~13 micron?) screen for the Rusco prefilter. If this ends up being too fine I'll try a 500 mesh.
- The check valve before the aerator is placed to allow for a small water column above it.
- For air injection into the aerator, I was going to use a few feet of CPVC with many small holes drilled in the bottom to create many small bubbles to increase air contact with the water. The complete systems I see sold usually just pump air into the top of the tank, so I hope I'm not missing something here...
- For the backwashing filter media, I looked a lot into multimedia setups, but in the end it seemed just having Katalox Light alone gave the best combination of flow rate, iron removal, and sediment filtration (down to ~3-5 microns).
- I've tried to balance flow through the paired backwash filters. Are there any problems with how I have them plumbed?
- Both the backwashing filters and the softeners should hopefully not allow untreated water to flow through while they are backwashing/regenerating. Is that true for the Fleck 2510/5800 control valved?
- I did a lot of research on softener resins and settled on Purolite's Shallow Shell line. Unfortunately, I can't find a whole lot of documentation on it.
- Regarding the above, I'd also like to use their SSTPPC8000E version, but can't find anyone selling it.
- I'm really not happy with how the 3 cartridge filters are plumbed, especially to and from the paired GAC filters.
- I've read a bit about LED UV Disinfection, but haven't seen any potential whole house units sold, outside of maybe Aquisense, who I emailed. Are these available?
- The hot/cold lines that go directly into the wall rather than the long route over the softeners service the kitchen and laundry only. I'm thinking of a separate smaller tankless heater for them that I'd install under the kitchen sink.
I think that's it for now! I'll update this post regularly as things are changed and once I find those water tests...
Thanks!
Water
Water comes from a well in Maryland. I had it tested and have testing records from the previous owner going back about 30 years. Too bad I can't find them... I'll update this when I do, but in general:
- High iron levels - I believe they were ~10 mg/L
- Moderate hardness, even after correcting for iron levels.
- Small amount of... other things. Sorry. Nothing that demands correction.
- Flow rate is ~7 GPM right now, but I am considering upgrading the pump.
Design
Here are some of the thoughts that have guided my plan:
- Iron and hardness removal are primary goals, but there is an element of 'general treatment' to account for the various contaminants that are present in small levels or that aren't tested for.
- On a related note, I have a strong preference for treatments which don't add anything to the water. That's unavoidable in some cases, but I aim for it where possible.
- CPVC is used within the treatment system, copper is used after treatment and within the house, PEX for outdoor faucets.
- I've done my best to minimize flow restriction wherever possible.
- Easily disassembly and part reuse is something I'm willing to pay a bit extra for.
- A male garden hose threat outlet is present at every point in the treatment to allow for water sampling, pressure testing, and component bypass via a drinking water quality hose.
- Copper Tube Size pipes and NPT threads have been used thoughout, except for the connection to the pressure switch. I'm hoping I didn't miss any...
Documentation
Regarding the images and model, I've used the largest expected dimensions for all components, so the actual build should be a bit more compact.
- Here is a 3d model built in SketchUp: https://drive.google.com/open?id=1N_...Ql5ABZ8bcjgbi4
- Here are a few pictures of the model: https://photos.app.goo.gl/vuB1IYy17rTdscd23
- Here is a spreadsheet with the parts list: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...it?usp=sharing
Notes and Concerns
I've got quite a few things I'm not terribly happy with or sure about. I've done my best, would appreciate any insights! Here they are, generally following the flow of the water, with some overall stuff first.
- For pricing, I can get 15% off at Lowe's, 10% at Home Depot, and 5% at Amazon, so I lean toward them.
- I have a **lot** of union ball valves in the design to allow for bypassing and easy disassembly. The price of what I have planned is worth it to me, but I'd be very happy to streamline things a bit.
- I prefer long sweep elbows and tees where possible, but I can't find any for CTS CPVC. Spears has some for Schedule 80 CPVC, but I don't want to transition just for that.
- I have the pressure switch after the Rusco prefilter to protect the switch a bit. I know this is generally not recommended, but I do have the pressure relief valve before it.
- I am planning on going with a 1000 mesh (~13 micron?) screen for the Rusco prefilter. If this ends up being too fine I'll try a 500 mesh.
- The check valve before the aerator is placed to allow for a small water column above it.
- For air injection into the aerator, I was going to use a few feet of CPVC with many small holes drilled in the bottom to create many small bubbles to increase air contact with the water. The complete systems I see sold usually just pump air into the top of the tank, so I hope I'm not missing something here...
- For the backwashing filter media, I looked a lot into multimedia setups, but in the end it seemed just having Katalox Light alone gave the best combination of flow rate, iron removal, and sediment filtration (down to ~3-5 microns).
- I've tried to balance flow through the paired backwash filters. Are there any problems with how I have them plumbed?
- Both the backwashing filters and the softeners should hopefully not allow untreated water to flow through while they are backwashing/regenerating. Is that true for the Fleck 2510/5800 control valved?
- I did a lot of research on softener resins and settled on Purolite's Shallow Shell line. Unfortunately, I can't find a whole lot of documentation on it.
- Regarding the above, I'd also like to use their SSTPPC8000E version, but can't find anyone selling it.
- I'm really not happy with how the 3 cartridge filters are plumbed, especially to and from the paired GAC filters.
- I've read a bit about LED UV Disinfection, but haven't seen any potential whole house units sold, outside of maybe Aquisense, who I emailed. Are these available?
- The hot/cold lines that go directly into the wall rather than the long route over the softeners service the kitchen and laundry only. I'm thinking of a separate smaller tankless heater for them that I'd install under the kitchen sink.
I think that's it for now! I'll update this post regularly as things are changed and once I find those water tests...
Thanks!
#2
03-18-18, 02:01 PM
Group Moderator
Welcome to the forums.
Your 3D sketchup is in a foreign file format. It won't open in the viewer.
Looks like it may be an auto Cad format.
To be compatible so that the members can see your diagrams and pictures.... we try to host them here at the board. How-to-insert-pictures
Your 3D sketchup is in a foreign file format. It won't open in the viewer.
Looks like it may be an auto Cad format.
To be compatible so that the members can see your diagrams and pictures.... we try to host them here at the board. How-to-insert-pictures
#3
03-18-18, 02:19 PM
Member
Here is my set up,
2 big blue whole house filters, chlorine injection, large holding tank, softer and carbon filter, final is 5 stage RO system.
https://www.doityourself.com/forum/a...1&d=1521407974
2 big blue whole house filters, chlorine injection, large holding tank, softer and carbon filter, final is 5 stage RO system.
https://www.doityourself.com/forum/a...1&d=1521407974
#4
03-18-18, 02:21 PM
Group Moderator
#5
03-18-18, 03:12 PM
I'm not an expert in water treatment, but it sounds like your setup may be way overkill.
Since the only issue you're dealing with is a bit of hardness and iron, plus standard filtering, it seems like you should be able to get by with just a decent filter plus softener.
I'm also not a fan of all the unions you have planned. Especially with CPVC, it's easily cut and replaced if you need to. Every union is a potential leak point.
As for GPM, how many fixtures do you have in the house? Do you really need more capacity?
Since the only issue you're dealing with is a bit of hardness and iron, plus standard filtering, it seems like you should be able to get by with just a decent filter plus softener.
I'm also not a fan of all the unions you have planned. Especially with CPVC, it's easily cut and replaced if you need to. Every union is a potential leak point.
As for GPM, how many fixtures do you have in the house? Do you really need more capacity?
#6
03-18-18, 04:52 PM
Originally Posted by PJmax
Welcome to the forums.
Your 3D sketchup is in a foreign file format.
Your 3D sketchup is in a foreign file format.
Originally Posted by Marq1
Here is my set up,
2 big blue whole house filters, chlorine injection, large holding tank, softer and carbon filter, final is 5 stage RO system.
2 big blue whole house filters, chlorine injection, large holding tank, softer and carbon filter, final is 5 stage RO system.
Originally Posted by Zorfdt
I'm not an expert in water treatment, but it sounds like your setup may be way overkill.
Since the only issue you're dealing with is a bit of hardness and iron, plus standard filtering, it seems like you should be able to get by with just a decent filter plus softener.
I'm also not a fan of all the unions you have planned. Especially with CPVC, it's easily cut and replaced if you need to. Every union is a potential leak point.
As for GPM, how many fixtures do you have in the house? Do you really need more capacity?
Since the only issue you're dealing with is a bit of hardness and iron, plus standard filtering, it seems like you should be able to get by with just a decent filter plus softener.
I'm also not a fan of all the unions you have planned. Especially with CPVC, it's easily cut and replaced if you need to. Every union is a potential leak point.
As for GPM, how many fixtures do you have in the house? Do you really need more capacity?
I've always read not to use a softener for iron removal, especially levels like 10 mg/L. The current softener definitely helps, but a lot still gets though.
I'm not a fan of the additional complexity and cost of the unions, but I know I'm going to be removing that entire system at least twice in the next year for some work in that room... Just for that they pay for themselves, plus it will be a whole lot easier to get everything back together. If I wasn't expecting to be moving things around so much, I'd be happy to go without them.
House is 3 levels and has 6 sinks, 3 showers, 4 toilets, dishwasher, washing machine. Also some outdoor watering (plus thinking about growing hay this year), but that water will come out before the softener.
#7
03-19-18, 07:41 AM
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Southeastern Pennsylvania
Posts: 3,294
Received 114 Upvotes
on
105 Posts
I’m no expert for sure. I did my own treatment setup – but it’s only a very simple treatment process. I’d just like to make a few comments.
(1) Did you intend not to label anything in the diagrams? No real big deal, I think I can find most things but not absolutely sure (e.g., pressure switch). But I guess more knowledgeable people can find the components easily enough.
(2) There is a some pressure drop across most of these filters. Since you have multiple filters did you add up all the drops?
(3) I would make sure the well can produce more than 7 gals/min before you buy a new pump.
(4) I used the Fleck 2510 on my Acid Neutralizer Tank and the valve does stop water flow to the house when it is in backwash mode.
(5) On your parts spreadsheet you have a 20 gallon pressure tank listed. I think a 20 gal tank is a little too small for a 7 GPM pump – let alone a larger pump. At 40-60 pressure you would get a drawdown of about 6 gals. So your pump would run for less than a minute – which is a short cycle.
(6) Also, you may have already done this but the backwash filters require a certain gals/min backwash rate to backwash properly. So your tank size can’t be bigger than the available backwash rate. You probably already calculated that, but I just thought I’d remind you.
(1) Did you intend not to label anything in the diagrams? No real big deal, I think I can find most things but not absolutely sure (e.g., pressure switch). But I guess more knowledgeable people can find the components easily enough.
(2) There is a some pressure drop across most of these filters. Since you have multiple filters did you add up all the drops?
(3) I would make sure the well can produce more than 7 gals/min before you buy a new pump.
(4) I used the Fleck 2510 on my Acid Neutralizer Tank and the valve does stop water flow to the house when it is in backwash mode.
(5) On your parts spreadsheet you have a 20 gallon pressure tank listed. I think a 20 gal tank is a little too small for a 7 GPM pump – let alone a larger pump. At 40-60 pressure you would get a drawdown of about 6 gals. So your pump would run for less than a minute – which is a short cycle.
(6) Also, you may have already done this but the backwash filters require a certain gals/min backwash rate to backwash properly. So your tank size can’t be bigger than the available backwash rate. You probably already calculated that, but I just thought I’d remind you.
#8
03-19-18, 02:24 PM
1. Sorry, I tried to make the spreadsheet organized enough to see that, but I see now that it's not terribly helpful. Will post labels as soon as I have time!
2. I did, and tried to minimize pressure drop where possible. I'm thinking of having the well switch at 40-60 psi and the aerator pump at 60-75 psi. I doubled up on the backwashing filter and softener tanks partly for more flow. I couldn't find solid info to make good estimates for them though. The GAC filters drop 3 psi @ 2 gpm each, and the 1 micron filter 0.6 psi @ 10 gpm. All said, I'd expect flow performance to be similar to what I have now.
3. That's definitely a good idea. I'm guessing that will require professional to come out? I can't think of how I could reasonable test that myself.
4. Great! First definitive statement I've heard about that. Don't suppose you know about the 5800?
5. I agree there. That pressure tank is already present and I was thinking of reusing it. Might have to rethink that though.
6. Thanks for the reminder! That's another reason I doubled up on the tanks rather than getting a large tank. Katalox Light requires 5.6 GPM in a 10" x 54" tank so I should be good as long as not much water is being used elsewhere at the time. I'm planning on having the backwash filters set on an alternating schedule with each one going every 2 days a few hours past midnight. I'm not sure of the details for the 5800's to regenerate the softeners so there might be the occasional overlap, but it should be rare.
2. I did, and tried to minimize pressure drop where possible. I'm thinking of having the well switch at 40-60 psi and the aerator pump at 60-75 psi. I doubled up on the backwashing filter and softener tanks partly for more flow. I couldn't find solid info to make good estimates for them though. The GAC filters drop 3 psi @ 2 gpm each, and the 1 micron filter 0.6 psi @ 10 gpm. All said, I'd expect flow performance to be similar to what I have now.
3. That's definitely a good idea. I'm guessing that will require professional to come out? I can't think of how I could reasonable test that myself.
4. Great! First definitive statement I've heard about that. Don't suppose you know about the 5800?
5. I agree there. That pressure tank is already present and I was thinking of reusing it. Might have to rethink that though.
6. Thanks for the reminder! That's another reason I doubled up on the tanks rather than getting a large tank. Katalox Light requires 5.6 GPM in a 10" x 54" tank so I should be good as long as not much water is being used elsewhere at the time. I'm planning on having the backwash filters set on an alternating schedule with each one going every 2 days a few hours past midnight. I'm not sure of the details for the 5800's to regenerate the softeners so there might be the occasional overlap, but it should be rare.
#9
03-19-18, 04:16 PM
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Southeastern Pennsylvania
Posts: 3,294
Received 114 Upvotes
on
105 Posts
Hats-
No sorry I don’t know anything about the 5800. But there is another forum here “Water Softeners and Air Filtration Systems” and I think on that forum there are pros who have a lot of experience with different valves- Fleck, Clack, etc.
I think you are right and you can set those valves up to backwash so they wouldn’t interfere with each other.
I am not sure, but I think I remember that it may not be practical for a homeowner to test the well recovery rate. I think as you say it may require a pro company to do that. I think the pros use some kind of special pump to test the well recovery rate. I would think it shouldn’t be too expensive for the test but I really don’t know.
(I did the same kind of thing you did with the spreadsheets. ID, prices,sources, etc. Great minds think alike - lol)
No sorry I don’t know anything about the 5800. But there is another forum here “Water Softeners and Air Filtration Systems” and I think on that forum there are pros who have a lot of experience with different valves- Fleck, Clack, etc.
I think you are right and you can set those valves up to backwash so they wouldn’t interfere with each other.
I am not sure, but I think I remember that it may not be practical for a homeowner to test the well recovery rate. I think as you say it may require a pro company to do that. I think the pros use some kind of special pump to test the well recovery rate. I would think it shouldn’t be too expensive for the test but I really don’t know.
(I did the same kind of thing you did with the spreadsheets. ID, prices,sources, etc. Great minds think alike - lol)
