Basement floor drain backs up from kitchen drain. Are they connected?


  #41  
Old 11-30-18, 06:06 PM
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That's a great picture. If my clog is about where this picture shows a clog, that would explain what I'm seeing. A clog at that location would cause water to back up into the branches of my other two floor holes (the floor drain, and the other hole - which might have been a 2nd vent , or even 2nd kitchen drain).

I wonder why the drain king (hose bladder) would not open it all the way up? Maybe the clog is too 'gunky'! I will have to get that electric 1/2" snake. I was hoping the water bladder wold work, because the electric snake is about 110 pounds - too heavy for me to lift alone. I tried a smaller hand held 1/4 inch snake - no success.

I just hope that it's a clog, and not a broken pipe, as I fear that would also explain the failure of the drain king water bladder!

I' thinking that maybe I need to attempt to get that cast iron clean out cap off before I rent, just in case the snake has trouble with the PVC, 'wye' clean out. That way if I need to access through that original clean out, I won't be struggling to get it off while I have the snake during the rental time period.

Thanks for that great picture!
 
  #42  
Old 12-02-18, 10:39 AM
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Sure thing mnalep, glad to be any help at all. I didnít remember those drum machines being that heavy, but I think you are right. I think the ones I rented had wheels on them if I remember correctly. Iím pretty sure they did and it wasnít hard to move it around, even up and down steps.

I think I got the guys at Home Depot to help me put it in my trunk -but I donít remember how I got it out when I got home. (I remember using a ramp up to my trunk for something already, maybe thatís what I did, just rolled it down a ramp).

So Iím pretty sure you can get one thatís easy to move around.
 
  #43  
Old 12-04-18, 01:52 PM
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I am going to go and look at the snakes again at home depot. A ramp would be nice, but not sure were I could get one for not to much money, or maybe gerry rig some wood, or something.

Also I am going to see If I can get the cap off the cast iron clean out. There is that PVC wye, but it is up about 20 inches from the floor, and the BVC waster pipe it is attached at the bottom (cast iron fitting) with a rubber 'fernco' coupling - that I wonder if it can withstand the twisting 1/2 inch snake, or not?
 
  #44  
Old 12-04-18, 08:48 PM
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So I was having trouble taking the cap off the clean out, so I just pulled the PVC drain pipe out of the floor fixture. (Not sure what to call it - 'floor drain with clean out'?).

I think it is broken where the pipe turns. I put a piece of angle iron in the hole, and it felt mushy where the crack appeared to be, and it went down a few inches more than the other drains - probably about 16 inches, then felt like it hit something more solid. I took a picture - it looks grayish, but not solid clay either.

I have some pictures of the fixture, and the location of this kitchen drain in the basement below. Maybe you can help me identify what you see?

I'm guessing the fixture is broken, and the kitchen drain water is now mostly spilling into the ground? But there also must be another clog further down the piping, which is why the other floor drain has standing water in it?

I suppose snaking might still clear the downstream clog, and the other floor drain, but I don't know if I should even bother with that at this point?

I suppose I need to try to determine how much more pipe, if any, might be broken. Maybe buy an inexpensive sewer camera off Ebay and see if I can get a better look inside the pipe?

Is there anyway to bypass the broken section without breaking the cement and replacing the fixture? Can I route the waste pipe to another floor drain (above the cement)? Or, perhaps insert some flexible tubing in the fixture so the water goes down the drain properly?
 
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  #45  
Old 12-04-18, 08:53 PM
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Would this be similar to the cast iron fixture I have that my kitchen PVC pipe is draining into? Is mine called a hub with clean out?
 
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Last edited by mnalep; 12-04-18 at 10:29 PM.
  #46  
Old 12-05-18, 08:41 AM
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----------------------------------------
I would run water from a hose down that drain, slow at first, then gradually going faster, and watch the water level in all of the floor openings and maybe that would give you a better idea of whatís happening.
 
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  #47  
Old 12-05-18, 04:25 PM
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I'll try running hose water down it and see what happens. I think I'll try pushing a 1/4" hand snake down that hole, and also down the other drain hole, and see what happens. I'll let you know. Thanks.
 
  #48  
Old 12-05-18, 11:03 PM
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Skimming thru the 40+ posts, I can't help but think that a camera inspection might cost less than all the tools you're thinking of renting. We're all looking at monitors or pictures of concrete that's on top of some underground piping. An on-site professional (a good one) would figure it out in a New York minute.
 
  #49  
Old 12-06-18, 11:29 AM
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Hi Steve,

I have seen prices for camera inspection starting at around $250.=, up to $450.

I am looking on Ebay for what I might get in terms of a cheap camera. Not sure they are worth while though, but I've seen small ones for around $30.

I have not rented any tools yet. I was going to rent a 1/2" snake for around $35 - $40 for 3 hours, but not sure I should use such a powerful electric snake if pipes are rusting. I don't want to cause more damage. So far, I can live with this issue, it's a minor back up every few months, and plungin,g and using a water bladder on garden hose, seems to keep it from getting worse for now.

I thought about a water jetting tool, but Pilot Dane informed me those need to go in from a downstream pipe, in order to allow all the water used to drain away, and that is not an option for me as I have no out doors clean out to use, and the one larger 6.5" drain in the basement, may or may not be a whole hose trap - but Ican't get the floor cover off as it's welded onto the fitting that is cemented in.

So, I'm thinking about trying a hand held snake. Or maybe buying a larger hose bladder and inserting it into the floor drain, and the fixture that appears to have the hole in it. Also going to first run some hose water into that fixture to se what happens, as Zoesdad suggested.
 
  #50  
Old 12-06-18, 09:33 PM
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I bought a cheap camera one time and it was useless.

How big is the line you're trying to clear? If it's just one kitchen, it may be 2" and a 1/4" snake should go through it.

If you've never used a snake before, be careful. I don't think you could elevate it to an art form, but there is a learning curve.
 
  #51  
Old 12-07-18, 08:38 PM
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Steve,

So, My son had a cheap $45 USB endoscope camera (called a Giraffe) - so I tried it.

Bottom line, it works ok outside of the pipes - but in the pipe it does not help show whats going on. I took a couple of still images, and a video...

Lets see if this video gets displayed:

[URL="https://photos.google.com/album/AF1QipMrMe-DhQT3_sc2XepfJeNFUbjGvarE4O9B3tDJ/photo/AF1QipPwNKgLD1QT1EGKI1NPMFyCKac0v1JaoQpxqCUn[/URL]

https://photos.google.com/album/AF1Q...c0v1JaoQpxqCUn


The first two still images below, I took with the Giraffe endoscope - outside of the drain:


The 3rd and 4th are two still images I took with the Giraffe endoscope - inside of the drain (you can just about make out what I think is a crack/hole in these pictures that is at the bottom turn of the pipe):
 
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Last edited by mnalep; 12-07-18 at 09:06 PM.
  #52  
Old 12-07-18, 09:05 PM
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Zoesdad,

https://photos.google.com/album/AF1Q...uphjZDgeMhhGfn

So, there is my cell phone video, of the basement pipe with the hose running water down the pipe:

This ran for over 5 minutes out of the hose, no backups...I thought maybe the water was going through a crack, or down the pipe..BUT...after I shot this video - I put the Drain King bladder on the end of the hose - and got a DIFFERENT result.

With the bladder inserted into the pipe, and the water spigot turned on FULL OPEN - the level in the other floor drain came up almost immediately and began over flowing onto the basement floor! I turned the spigot off, and the water receded to about 3 inches below the floor.

Then I put the bladder in the 'normal' floor drain that was backing up, turned the spigot on, and the water started coming up out of the fixture that holds the PVC kitchen drain pipe, the one I though maybe had the crack in the bottom of it!

I don't understand why I got two different results? Fist with just a hose - no backups. Second, with a bladder on the hose - a backup (in both directions). ???

Was there more water possibly with the bladder attached? I turn the spigot open all the way when bladder was attached to the hose - but the badder tends to restrict the water output.

I'm confused!


https://photos.google.com/album/AF1Q...uphjZDgeMhhGfn
 
  #53  
Old 12-08-18, 06:32 AM
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(Canít access the picture since a google account is needed.) Here is a link describing how to insert pictures:

How to insert pictures.

Since you have to use the bladder at full flow I think you will have a greater water flow than when you use the hose by itself at partial flow. You would probably have the same backup if you used the hose at full flow without the bladder.

It sounds like the drain is passing a fair amount of water. Maybe some of the blockage was cleared with the bladder. Although I thought you need to get the bladder near the blockage for it to be effective. I used one years ago but I donít remember the details (I think they are also called ďblowbagsĒ).
 
  #54  
Old 12-10-18, 11:36 AM
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So is it just the videos you cannot see? Or do you not see the pictures either?

Maybe your right about the flow of water being greater when I had the bladder on the hose end. That makes sense.

BTW, I've seen the blowbags, but what I am using is a little different. It's a rubber bladder. Google 'drain king' for pictures. I have once placed it 15 feet down a vent stack, when I couldn't get it past a 90 degree elbow bend, but the other times I used it I just put it a few inches into a pipe, just far enough to surround the entire bladder so it does not 'explode'. Maybe a blow bag would be better - can it be inserted through 90 bends?

Yesterday I bought a 'sewer rod' to try. It's a flat piece of steel that you push through a clog. It was like $30 at Home Depot. I thought I might try it and see what happens...

I'll check into the link about posting pictures that you provided.
 
  #55  
Old 12-10-18, 01:40 PM
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Both links from post #52 produce a Google login screen. The pics is post #51 are visible right in the post. I donít think there would be much difference between the drain king and the blowbags Iíve seen. I think they are the same thing although I donít think all blowbags are heavy duty rubber.

I donít think you are supposed to try and push those past bends. It may get stuck.
 
  #56  
Old 12-10-18, 03:55 PM
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Zoesdad,

I have changed the SHARE option on google photos to PUBLIC (I hope).

Check this link for the two videos, and 5 still pictures, I shared in prior posts. The videos from posts #51 and #52 should be viewable now, without logging in, Let me know if you can see them now.
 
  #57  
Old 12-10-18, 04:41 PM
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Bummer! Still get Google login page for all the links in those posts.
 
  #58  
Old 12-10-18, 07:46 PM
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Zoesdad,

Oops, My mistake, apparently making these videos PUBLIC is half the process. The the half requires providing viewers a new link!

Try this ....

https://photos.app.goo.gl/nrS9NLaNm9Sk112o7

Did that work?
 
  #59  
Old 12-11-18, 07:30 AM
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I can see them now. It looks like you certainly have a fair amount of flow. I would think the blockage must be between the pipe you put the hose down and the stack in the middle of the basement. At least thatís the way it seems to me. But that still leaves you with the problem you started with: itís all under the basement floor.

I bet if you looked down the cleanout by the main stack in the middle of the basement while the drain you put the hose down was backing up and overflowing, you would NOT see water backing up in that cleanout. But it may not be worth it if that plug is hard to remove. I guess you donít want to add in a new problem and screw up the plug.

How far did the camera go into the drain? Did you see a blockage? I see the hole you are talking about.
 
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Old 12-11-18, 11:53 AM
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That clean out on the main stack is rusted shut too. I'm going to avoid trying to open it - for now. (All the other house sinks, toilets, tubs, etc., work fine. My guess is you are right, water would not back up into that drain if I tested again.

I only got the camera down into the water in each hole, maybe a few inches. Could see nothing in the water, so I didn't try any further.

I bought a 1/2" sewer rod (for about $30 at HD). It's a flat metal type of snake. I'm going to see if I can push that through either drain hole. I hope it's stiff enough to push through, If it is, maybe it will get water flowing, or tell me where any clog might be.

I've read some people had some luck attaching the endoscope camera to this type of sewer rod, and could push the camera further into the pipe. Then they say don't expect to see anything pushing camera forward, because it gets junk on the lens going forwards, but when you pull backwards you might see inside the pipe.

I am thinking the possible hole in the first drain pipe, at the bottom of the kitchen waste pipe, is just letting water pass into the ground?
 
  #61  
Old 12-22-18, 09:40 AM
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The DRAIN ROD was a success. I put it down the floor drain, and worked it back and forth, for about 10 feet down the pipe, and it opened up the clog! That's the good news.

The bad news, is after the water drained away, i saw a small chunk of debris in the opening of the floor drain. It was at the entry to the floor drain, in the section of pipe coming from the kitchen drain line. I managed to poke it with a piece of steel molding, and get it into the bottom of the floor drain. It was too big to pull out. I did manage to tap it with the piece of steel molding, and break a small piece of it off the larger chunk, and sucked that small piece out with a shop vac.

I'm not sure what it is, but there are picture at the link I've inserted. It almost looks like a piece of red brick!

I put the hose down the PVC wye clean out, and the water flowed through the floor drain, to the main. I could see the water flowing past the chunk of debris, so I might be ok to leave it in there. (SO, the kitchen drain line DOES go through the floor drain, which goes to the main drain!)

I am brainstorming ideas of how to either break it up, and vacuum it out, but I don't want to bang too hard on the debris through the floor drain, as I don't want to risk braking the pipe at the bottom of the floor drain.

Or, maybe use something to reach down from the PVC wye and try and pull it out. It appears to be about 3 inches in diameter. (Maybe something like a small fish net taped to the end of the sewer rod?)

Any ideas?

BTW, now that I can see the bottom it appears to be material that looks like it is 'dotted' - like a black and orange color mix. That does not seem like cast iron, does it? A few of the pictures at the link sort of show the texture of the bottom of the drain pipe.

I am also thinking of taping the endoscope camera to the drain rod, and putting it down the pipes and see what is going on in there, Maybe now that the water is out - I can see some clearer images?

There are two videos among the still pictures, at the google photos link below. I've also inserted a blow up of the picture with the debris in the drain pipe, and another one showing the 'mottled' substrate of the drain pipe, showing the spotted texture (maybe it's orange and black, or orange and white colors?) - not sure that is cast iron pipe?

https://photos.app.goo.gl/baKpnDnRBJmnTUfr7
 
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  #62  
Old 12-23-18, 03:11 PM
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Great -good going!!! So it looks like that rod was a good decision you made and certainly was worth the cost.

Maybe that red piece is a piece of clay pipe. From what I understand some of the drain pipes before the 1950’s were clay. So maybe you are seeing pieces of the broken pipe. If the pipes are clay then I guess you have to be careful you don’t break anything more than is already broken. But looks like you were already aware of that.

Just thought of something. If those are clay pipes then I bet that might have implications for the best way to clear those pipes in the future. I'm just thinking that the pros might say "don't use any kind of high pressure flows" or things like that. Just guessing, but I bet clay pipes would rule in and rule out certain methods.
 

Last edited by zoesdad; 12-23-18 at 03:31 PM. Reason: added "just thought ...
  #63  
Old 12-23-18, 08:14 PM
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That makes sense. I hope I don't need to snake it again. That drain rod worked great.


Maybe if I get the endoscope camera in there I can get a better picture, and see if there is any damage in the pipes. I'm curious to see how it drains for the next week or so. I also thought I could put a magnet on a long rod of sorts, and place it on that pipe and see if its iron, or not!
 
  #64  
Old 12-24-18, 06:36 AM
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Lot of ifís, but if that is clay pipe then maybe your are just seeing some pieces that broke off the surface which would not necessarily mean the pipe is broken through.
 
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Old 12-27-18, 08:51 AM
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Maybe. That would be a relief. I'll post if I get any useful images with that little endoscope camera.
 
 

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