Outdoor water main shut off valve

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  #1  
Old 11-26-20, 10:03 AM
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Outdoor water main shut off valve




Looking for an alternative to the county shut off valve which is too stiff, hard to turn. The valve above appears to be an alternative water main shut off valve.....it's inline with the main water pipe in between the county shut off and the house.....it's not been used in at least fifteen years, and appears rusty...the handle bends very easily, so am worried it might snap off if I try to shut it off......The valve is a Webstone 125wsp 600 wog....hard to get to as it's about two feet in the ground, and appears to have cement surrounding it, with just the handle sitting above the cement.....Any advise on how to deal with this valve....should I just let it be, or is it salvageable, in spite of the rust? Here is a link to what I believe the valve is: http://www.webstonevalves.com/Customer/WECOIN/specpages/4182.pdf

 

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11-30-20, 10:24 AM
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Maybe the people at WebStone misunderstood – or maybe I do. Here are pictures of one of my valves with the handle connected and then removed. You can also see the handle in the 90 position (fully closed) as other have shown with pictures.

I removed that nut holding my handle with 1/2 socket. Worst comes to worst you could always buy another valve just for the handle. If you put PB Blaster all over that rusty nut you might be able to get that handle off.

As others have stated just because the handle is all rusty doesn’t mean the valve is locked up.

(I don’t know what you mean by the handle hits the cement. It only has to rotate 90 as others have pointed out.)
 
  #2  
Old 11-26-20, 10:12 AM
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The valve is brass but the handle is steel. May just be a rusted out handle.
What was done was when the water line ditch was covered they put that access pipe over the valve and backfilled. Now you'd need to dig around that pipe to get it out of the ground to work on the valve.

I wouldn't consider replacing that valve a DIY job.
I wouldn't recommend even trying to turn it off. If it broke it would need immediate replacement.
Try removing more dirt from around the valve to assess its condition.
 
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  #3  
Old 11-27-20, 02:21 PM
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Cleaned out the dirt and got a better look. It appears to be pvc coming from the street side of the supply line into the valve, and then copper pipe out the other side of the valve into the house. The cement is on either side of the pipe, pretty snug but not touching, and just dirt below the pipe. Was surprised to see the white pvc, the house was built in 1962..........Still hard to see the valve itself.....will probably have to dig a hole around the pipe,and pull the enclosure out, to get a good view.......
 
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Old 11-27-20, 08:10 PM
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They put the water line in cement..... on either side of the valve.
That's not going to make servicing too easy.
 
  #5  
Old 11-28-20, 01:49 PM
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Better Pics of Valve

Here's a better pic of the valve. Looks rusty, PVC is to the left and it transitions into copper on right. Going to call the valve maker on Monday to see if the valve can be repaired in place, or if it needs to come out. The flat area is cement.....I didn't try to turn the valve handle, but it looks like it will hit the cement after a quarter turn.

 

Last edited by PJmax; 11-28-20 at 02:02 PM. Reason: resized and labeled pic
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Old 11-28-20, 02:04 PM
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Looks like a stop where I put the arrow. That means the valve is off in the direction shown.
It really doesn't make a difference if the valve can be rebuilt.... you still need the city to turn the water off and your working in a tight area.
 
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Old 11-28-20, 03:02 PM
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The stop shown is the "full on" stop, turn the handle up 90 degrees and you will hit the "full off" stop.

The valve and ball are made of brass, this should prevent seizure of the valve. The handle and nut are made of metal, so that is what you are seeing as being rusted and corroded. See attached spec sheet.

If the handle were to hit the cement, you could bend it up some to prevent this. The cement is kind of a good idea, acts as a backer wrench for turning valve on and off.

Use a wire brush, clean up nut on top of valve. Shut off water at main, just to be safe. Use a six side socket, extension and ratchet. Place socket properly on the nut and see if you can get ball to rotate in valve. May take a littler force, but not to much. You will be able to tell.
Once broke free, use handle to move back and forth several times. Get a fill for it. Once working. You will need to remember to come out and give a turn every once in awhile.
 
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4182 ball valve.pdf (531.5 KB, 9 views)
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Old 11-28-20, 03:05 PM
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If the county main valve is to hard to turn, maybe they will provide you with a tee handle or adjust their valve. Have you talked to them?
 
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Old 11-28-20, 03:09 PM
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There is another main shut off valve, the one with the city's meter on it, about 30 feet from the valve pictured. I can turn the water off there, that would allow someone to work on the rusty valve.......the problem is, the city shut off valve was changed about two years ago when they put in a "smart" water meter, and turning the city valve is extremely difficult, though doable with enough muscle. I think, though until it's turned I can't tell for sure, the rusty valve will hit the concrete before it can shut off the water (turning in the direction of the arrows)....so maybe a different handle or some other fix can salvage the valve......or, may just have to have a plumber replace the rusty valve with something easy to shut on and off, that won't bump into the cocrete.......
 
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Old 11-28-20, 03:47 PM
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Going to call the city water people on Monday.....Based on past interactions with them, doubt they'll do anything...but who knows. I would still like to deal with the rusty valve, fix it, replace it.......
 
  #11  
Old 11-29-20, 12:18 AM
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Would it be possible to use a long masonry bit and drill holes in the cement, than break enough of it away to allow the handle to turn? Or a chisel, hammer and semi-gentle persuasion.

Hard to tell by the picture, but looked like the handle would barely hit the cement. If that is the case, as I said before, bend the handle so it will clear. If you could get handle off, you can get a replacement handle and bend to allow clearance.

I understand you are looking for an easy way to shut off water to your house, after the county main. Would there be an easier access point where you could install a shut off? Just leave this one be, if it is on and not leaking.

Here the city meters have a shut off valve at the input and output. Sometimes one is easier to turn than the other. May look to see it there is another one at the county main.
 
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Old 11-29-20, 10:03 AM
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I could be wrong but does he realize this is a quarter-turn valve? Looking at his picture in the first post this is why the line is off to one side so it can turn that far.

https://youtu.be/UoBVwXEzZsM?t=118

 
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Old 11-29-20, 12:39 PM
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Hope this helps, took me half the Vikings game to do it.



Pete had pretty much the same but mine in fancier.
 
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Old 11-30-20, 08:57 AM
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Talkled to Webstone Tech

So, talked to a tech at Webstone, the manufacturer of the valve, and the upshot is, given that the handle has rusted and has lost it's strength, the valve will have to be replaced......he said there is no way to repair the valve, it's a one piece unit, not servicable - can't change the handle........the handle felt almost like a bar of taffy. The city is sending someone out tomorrow to assess and hopefully fix the stiff city shut off valve. Thanks everyone who replied......was hoping there was some way to salvage the valve, but that apparently isn't the case.
 
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Old 11-30-20, 09:15 AM
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Hopefully, the city will be able to provide you with a way to easily shut off the water.

Let us know the final outcome.
 
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Old 11-30-20, 10:24 AM
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Maybe the people at WebStone misunderstood – or maybe I do. Here are pictures of one of my valves with the handle connected and then removed. You can also see the handle in the 90 position (fully closed) as other have shown with pictures.

I removed that nut holding my handle with 1/2 socket. Worst comes to worst you could always buy another valve just for the handle. If you put PB Blaster all over that rusty nut you might be able to get that handle off.

As others have stated just because the handle is all rusty doesn’t mean the valve is locked up.

(I don’t know what you mean by the handle hits the cement. It only has to rotate 90 as others have pointed out.)
 
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Old 11-30-20, 11:39 AM
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Yes, that looks like a pretty easy fix.......so the tech may be wrong...will call them back..The tech had at first assumed that I was talking about a nibco valve, they bought out Webco, maybe he wasn't informed about the webco valves, but it seems really straight forward ...By hitting the cement, the handle bumps into the cement as you open the valve.....it's hard to tell from the picture but the cement is higher than the handle.....as someone mentioned below, maybe the handle can be bent enough so that it can clear the cement......there might be an eighth on an inch that needs to be cleared....if the threads on the screw are usable, looks like the handle can be replaced easy....if the threads are damaged then maybe a new valve....maybe the tech assumed the threads or some other part of the valve is damaged.
 
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Old 11-30-20, 11:52 AM
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So called back Webstone, talked to a different tech.....he said the handle was likely carbon steel, thus the rust, but the valve stem was probably brass, so should be o.k....but will need to buy the same valve to swap out the handle as he thinks the handle and stem proportions are proprietary.......and doesn't sell the handle separately.......
 
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Old 11-30-20, 11:52 AM
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Okay, making some progress. Do you have a valve like that inside the house where it enters?

If you have troubles that would be a better place to turn it off than playing in the dirt.

Just a thought.
 

Last edited by Baldwin; 11-30-20 at 11:54 AM. Reason: Can't spell
  #20  
Old 11-30-20, 07:55 PM
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Handles are out there, you have to see which one will match up with the stem of the ball valve.
Here is a stainless steel one, a bit pricey, but it shouldn't rust... (not sure the hole is the correct size)

https://www.amazon.com/Stainless-Rep...790942&sr=8-41

 
  #21  
Old 12-01-20, 09:45 AM
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Ordered the same as original (presumably) Webstone valve yesterday, was about $9.00, so will take the handle off of that valve....it should work......is still the same steel as the original handle, but should be good for forseable future.....the valve that was on there is at least 15 years old....probably a lot older......could only find one retail vendor online who had that particular valve.....webstone couldn't even tell me where to get one......it seems like when webstone was bought out the new owners didn't take along webstone support personnel......
 
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Old 12-05-20, 03:16 PM
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Update. Received the valve that was supposed to be a webstone, but turns out it is an Eliteflo, that looks almost identical to the webstone, but is made in China. The plumbing supply place invoiced for the Webstone model but sent the Eliteflo..the Eliteflo hasn't proprietary threads.....so the webstone valve may not be available anymore....that appears to be the case. Dug a hole to get a better look at the situation and to try to ratchet the nut off the valve......the nut is too rounded and chunks of rust came right off......Tried gripping the nut with pliers, etc.....not going to happen. So will probably call a plumber Monday...the hole is dug so that should make the job easier. The valve is only about a foot from the brick wall....the pipe is 3/4" on the copper side.....I think, if I could get the nut off, the handle and nut from the Eliteflo may fit right on, but don't see how that nut can come off without possibly damaging the pvc or the valve stem.


 
  #23  
Old 12-06-20, 10:02 AM
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Hi Tonesg -

I found that PB Blaster does wonders. At times I was all ready to give up on things and then tried PB Blaster and had success. Maybe if you spray some PB Blaster all over that nut, and then grip it really hard, the best you can, with channels lock pliers - you might be able to move it.
 
  #24  
Old 12-06-20, 01:02 PM
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Oscillating Multi Tool removes rusty nut

Went to Harbor Freight got a $20.00 multi tool oscillating saw and very carefully cut the nut off the stem, from the top. The saw only has one speed - high speed - so it wasn't the smoothest operation, but managed to get the nut off without damaging the threads on the brass stem - took about two minutes. The brass stem has the same threads (I believe M8 x1.25) as the elite-flo valve so the nut off that valve fit fine on the webstone - so nothing proprietary about that, contrary to what the Webstone tech suggested.

The valve turns the water on and off without any problem, very easy and smooth, from the first time it was turned.....pretty impressive for not having been used in at least fifteen years.

The bad news is, the handle on the webstone valve is stuck on the stem, must be rusted on....trying wd 40 for now, but will try the other product (PB Blaster) suggested below - or something similar.....The original handle is weakened but may last a few more years.....The handle should just slide off, but it's fused somehow to the brass valve body/stem.......Afraid to try the oscillating tool on the handle, as there is nothing between the valve body and the handle so i may damage the valve body......the handle acted as a barrier between the valve body and the nut, when I sawed off the nut......
 
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Old 12-08-20, 09:51 AM
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Final Resolution

Couldn't gt the handle off with WD-40 or any other solvent....Had a plumber working on another issue today, asked him to take a look at the rusted on valve handle.....he said he might be able to get the handle off with a tool he had....so he gets a tool made for getting stuck handles off of valves ....it grips the edges of the handle and has a screw in the middle which tightens down on the stem....took about 15 seconds and the rusted handle came off. The replacement handle fit right on....so the ball valve is good for another 20 years. Pics below: new handle on top and rusted handle below.




 
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Old 12-08-20, 11:00 AM
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Oh good news for sure! Looks like you’ll be OK for years to come. Mother Nature did a job on that handle all right –lol. Good luck!
 
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Old 12-08-20, 01:38 PM
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I'm real glad the plumber today fixed the situation, as I wasn't looking forward to having to replace the whole valve, as another plumber was ready to do. Guess it's true, "rust never sleeps".
 
 

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