While replacing the plumbing lines in my house, I came to realize the main shutoff was not completely closing. Therefore I'd like to address the issue now while it's on my mind. Issue is the valve is installed very low and the pipe just barely straightens as it comes into the inlet. Also, the pipe on the inlet side is coated in solder, so it would take quite a bit of cleaning. Rather than removing the valve, I was thinking I'd just leave it in the fully open position and install a ball valve directly above it. Any reason not to do
this?
I'll be replacing the pressure regulator at the same time (ordered a Resideo Braukmann DS06). Since the valve and regulator are so close to the wall, I plan on using union fittings. Is this the proper way to do it? Any other tips before I tackle this? First order of business is determining whether I can shut the street valve off without having to call the water company out.
Your idea is a very common solution to a faulty main shutoff valve.
Since this is an exposed section of piping, you might consider using SharkBite's. Will make the job much easier.
It looks like you have nice, easy access. I'm not seeing the "just barely straightens" you mention. My choice would be to shut the water off at the street/meter and replace the valve that doesn't close.
The municipality may charge you for the service or they may tell you to hire a plumber or even demand that a licensed plumber do the installation. And you might find that valve needing replacement also. Or you could buy the special spanner needed to close that valve and you might also need an extension for it. My son-in-law just bought that special spanner.
When closing the main valve just how bad is the flow? Open the nearest faucet with valve closed. How much flows out of the faucet? If it's just a small amount it's possible to add a new valve using a SharkBite without shutting off outside valve. Of course you'll have water flowing into the area but if your fast it will be a minimum.
It isn't shooting out but it's a steady stream. Too much to solder that's for sure. I installed a Sharkbite valve on the outlet side of the regulator yesterday (not shown in pic) so I can shut off water to the house, I just can't shut off water to the regulator. Maybe I'll just do a Sharkbite valve just above the faulty valve then convert to a union fitting to connect the new regulator above.
Here's a different view showing the bend. It straightens out but more of an issue (maybe not) is all the old solder coating the pipe. Wouldn't I need to sand all of this off to get a good solder joint? Would a compression connection work here or is that not a good idea?
No, you'll need to make smooth and almost the same diameter as bare copper, no solder residue. I've faced this situation many times. And I don't like compression fitting.
side note...If you call in the municipality and they make you hire a plumber, that grounding cable I believe might have to be changed. Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe that is no longer code to ground to a water main due to the use of plastic pipe becoming more common. If you decide to do this on your own, I'll suggest you shut off power in you house, make the vale addition, remove and clean that grounding clamp.
In my area it's very easy to turn the water off at the meter. Most are shallow enough that a couple wrenches can do it or you can buy the water meter wrench, they are pretty inexpensive and shut the water off yourself.
If shutting the water off at the meter/street is not an option and you have access to dry ice or liquid nitrogen you can freeze the pipe below the leaking valve. Dry ice is easiest to work with. I wrap towels around the pipe to form a basin to hold the dry ice. Fill it with dry ice and mush the towels together to hold the dry against the pipe. You can you tape or string to hold it tightly together. Give it 10-15 minutes to freeze then go open a faucet to make sure the water has stopped. Then you can remove the bad valve and sweat on a new one. Because the up turned pipe will hold water you can siphon it out with a small bit of tubing or use a turkey baster. Get the water about 6" below where you want to sweat so it doesn't suck the heat away too quickly. And, leaving some water in the pipe will help stop the heat from melting your ice plug. After the work is done remove the dry ice and let it that naturally. I like to leave the valve closed or slightly cracked while it thaws. I don't want a solid chunk of ice shooting through the pipe and slamming into the valve.
I think I'll just leave the old valve in place then, and install a ball valve above it. I don't feel confident enough to do an ice plug. Regardless, I'll need to shut the water off at the street. I'll call the water company and see what they say about me doing it myself. I appreciate the feedback.
You're right, the cold water ground is basically useless now. I have ground rods too so it shouldn't be needed anyway. Thanks.
I have to ask, you would trust a Sharkbite fitting over a compression fitting? I would have thought compression would be second best to a sweated connection.
Only because it's in an exposed area. I don't think one is necessarily better than the other. It's just I have had bad experiences with compression fittings. I've had failures with compression fitting, so far never with a SharkBite. Besides you can't always reuse them. SharkBite's are reusable. But in your case that is pretty much a mute question. Once in place I see very little reason for a leak or any reason to undo it. But again that's personal choice.
My main reason suggesting the SharkBite in your case is that with flowing water you can still install the SharkBite valve with very little mess.
As much as I hate leaving a 'bad' valve in place... I'd have to agree. I'd cut the copper pipe between the valve and PRV, solder a PEX fitting there and convert to PEX right there. New valve, new PRV, and you're done.
And not to get off topic, but the grounding wire is required as a supplemental ground, so keep it securely attached.
Yes, I will be leaving it in place. I thought about it more after I posted that, and I don't know for sure if I have one ground rod or two, so I'll leave it alone.
In order to avoid digging up my mulch bed and messing with the meter (if I'm even able to access it), I think I'll do the following, if acceptable:
- Cut pipe above old valve and install 3/4" Sharkbite ball valve.
- Short copper stem between sharkbite valve and PRV
- MPT to Pex fitting outlet of PRV then Pex from there on out.
I like the idea of using copper between the valve and PRV to keep things more rigid. I don't like having valves with flexible pipe on either side that flexes when the valve is operated. I'll be strapping things to a 2x4 block, but I still like the rigidity copper provides.
By the way, why do PRVs only come with one union nut (inlet side) when both sides appear to be threaded for union fittings? Most installs I have seen, including mine, use the union nut on the inlet and the FPT thread with male MPT-to-sweat adapter on the outlet.
Why do you want to mix PEX and copper? If you were running a long line or new service I could see the transition but for a splice like what you want, stick with copper and be consistent.
Nothing wrong with PEX, but my son's new house has a mixture of copper and pex all over the place from previous owners . Looks like a real mess. Nothing is consistent and any rework or updating will be a nightmare. I'm a believer in keeping things simple and constant.
But your plan sounds good. Don't have an answer about the union fitting. I'd like to know also. Keep us posted.
The house was plumbed with polybutylene and I replaced it all with Pex. The service line coming into the home is copper so I'd like to keep everything rigid/copper until after the PRV.
I'll be doing the regulator, etc replacement in a couple days. I was thinking it would be nice to have a higher pressure at my outdoor spigots. What is a good way to achieve this? It is my understanding that the Josie pressure should not be higher than 70 or so. Would I install two regulators back to back and tee off the outlet of the first to feed my spigots? Set the first to 90 and the second to 65 or 70? Or should I just run 3/4" pipe to the spigots?
I would not run separate regulators. The reason for installing a PRV for the house is the same for your spigots. You are protecting the piping inside the house from excessive pressure so it doesn't make sense to run some pipes at one pressure and others at a higher pressure.
Volume is a different matter. 3/4" lines to the outdoor spigots is a good start.
Alright. I'll stick with one regulator and go with 3/4" pipe. Is there much to be gained from going with a 3/4" spigot over a 1/2"? Stem length would be 8" or 10" and distance from spigot to PRV will be 15'.
Yes, the size can make a big difference. There is also a difference among faucet brands. The frost proof faucets stocked by my local home center flowed considerably less water than the same size Woodford brand sillcock.
I need to be able to remove this outside spigot. There are screws on both side of the spigot housing. Will I be able to remove the screws and maybe turn the spigot housing in counter clockwise direction to remove it without damaging the pipe inside the wall. The wall inside is a drywall so it's not possible to see the pipe without cutting open the drywall so I'm trying to avoid cutting the drywall to see the pipe.
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I have a problem with a low pressure (or no pressure) on throughout the house. It wasn't always like that. It has developed in a last year or so. My system has about 62psi at the entry point (measured via a $10 gauge from Home Depot at the outside spout next to the water pipe that's going into the house). I have a boiler with an indirect water heater. There are two expansion tanks. One at the entry points for the baseboard heat and another one just before the indirect water heater. There is also a water softener between the water entry point to the house and the rest of the system.
The problem is that when the washing machine is on (located in the basement), the first floor has almost non-existent water pressure and the second floor has no water whatsoever. When we flush the toilet anywhere on the first or second floor, the pressure in the faucets drops by half or more. It is pretty much that you have to wait for the toilet to fill out before you can take a shower. What's weird is that if you open shower while the toilet is filling up, the pressure in the shower is low and will stay low even if the toilet is filled up (shower pressure won't go up).
Any ideas? I have posted photos of the pressure readings from the outside by the entry point and a photo of a gauge that's on my furnace.
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[i]Outside spigot next to the water entry point.[/i]
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[i]Furnace gauge.[/i]
02-03-21, 04:50 AM
