Do keymakers normally ignore..

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  #1  
Old 10-24-06, 01:32 PM
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Do keymakers normally ignore..

I have a key for work that has a small crack on one side of it. It works as long as I am careful with it. It does have "Do Not Duplicate" engraved on one side. Would a key maker ignore this or should I put electrical tape over the key head to get it copied?
 
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  #2  
Old 10-24-06, 01:38 PM
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I'd say it depends on who cuts the key. IMO it would be best to get whoever gave you the key to get one made.
 
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Old 10-24-06, 02:07 PM
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nightowlpunk,

It would be unethical for any key cuter to make a copy and I agree you should ask you employer to replace it.
If your employer was concerned about security though he would have used limited access blanks that only professional locksmiths can buy.

No professional locksmith would risk his reputation or even maybe his bonding by doing this.
 
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Old 10-24-06, 02:08 PM
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I have had a lot of keys made that have that on the side. I can't remember anyone ever questioning me. The only time I'm aware that you can't get copies made are the real high security locks where the original purchaser gets a certificate to show the locksmith he has permssion to copy keys. Medeco is one brand that comes to mind.
 
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Old 10-24-06, 03:56 PM
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Originally Posted by marksr
I'd say it depends on who cuts the key. IMO it would be best to get whoever gave you the key to get one made.
I agree with marksr. Maybe I'm being a stick in the mud here, but I won't do it unless I made the original key. It is a grey area for some, so they do it. Others don't care much. It's a matter of ethics with me. I sure would want to know that if I issued the key, someone would be paying attention. Especially if I was paying for it.

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Old 10-24-06, 06:34 PM
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Cuedude:

I've been waiting for one of the locksmiths to reply. My understanding is you are under no legal obligation to refuse to copy the key, right - it's ethics, not statute?
 
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Old 10-25-06, 03:35 AM
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It is an ethics issue when only a key is involved. Should a burglary occure, then it becomes a legal issue. However, the bonding we have is based on ethics, and therefore, we can lose it by being unethical. Now, is that legal? I'm not sure. But if a Professional Locksmith cannot be trusted because he (Basically) gives someone elses Key out to anyone, then a matter of ethics has just been broken.

Another example of ethics: A locksmith is liable if they unlock a vehicle for someone that is legally drunk, allowing them to drive. We didn't help them get drunk, we do not own the vehicle, but we cannot allow that to happen. My company will not open that vehicles door.

There are a ton of Grey Areas in this business, and a key marked with 'Do Not Duplicate' is one of them. To be on the safe side, we choose not to.

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Old 10-30-06, 12:48 AM
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I disagree cuedude...sorry.

Unless it is clearly a restricted profile...then any key whether or not it has "Do Not Duplicate" on it or not...is fair game.

Most often, you'll find that locksmith companies will stamp "do not duplicate" on their keys simply in an attempt to confuse the Wal-Mart or Lowes or HD or other hardware guy.

95% of locksmiths I'm sure would agree with me. Any keyblank commonly available from a supplier can be cut on my machine. But I will not cut something that is clearly a restricted key.

Medeco, comes to mind as an example of some one time restricted profiles that are out of patent protection and are commonly available by any key cutter to make copies of, if they have the suitable machinery.
 
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Old 10-30-06, 03:27 AM
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I guess we fall into that 5% of Locksmiths you mention, and no appology is necessary. It is a grey area at best, and it is the direction the people I work with have chosen.

I also have to disagree with you on a key being stamped to fool the people working in the big box stores or wherever so they won't cut the key. Someone wanted that on a key for a reason, and usually (in my experience) it is so the person that holds that key could not go have a copy made. Why not? Why would they not want someone with their own copy of a key, to keep when they left a place of employ, or a house they used to own/rent? To me, it is easy and simple. The person that has top control of that key doesn't want the average person having, or copying a key from the first one, so that person cannot come back later and do something they should not do. Again, you are correct, there is nothing that prevents a key being made from one stamped 'Do Not Duplicate', we however choose not to for the reasons given.

This was a good question to post on the board. One of the great mysteries of daily life.

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Old 11-01-06, 09:07 AM
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The key is one I probably am not supposed to have, because it is for a storeroom, but as a cleaner I do not think that a manager would appreciate a 4am phone call if
I run out of trash bags. It's not like I would try to go into the office and loot the safe, especially since this key would not open it. Even if I somehow managed to do it, I am bright enough not to defecate where I eat. However the manager seems to beyond nervous whenever I see him, which is rare because I am normally long gone before the anyone else comes in. I do not think it is a restrcted key due to the fact it looks like a common square headed key
 
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Old 11-01-06, 09:54 AM
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If you think you're not supposed to have the key in the first place, who gave it to you? I've had situations where I've had keys people didn't know I had, but they could see the merit in me having it once explained - just like not calling the manager at 4 am because some supply you need is locked up.
 
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Old 11-01-06, 02:39 PM
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It's kinda fuzzy logic to assume a "do not copy" key was ok to be copied because you can get the blanks at Wallmart.

No matter how hard you try someone will likely know you have it.
You will put yourself in a position of having betrayed your employer's trust by having the unauthorized key. Should something go wrong your credibility would not be very good.

Somehow try to convince your boss you need it and can be trusted.
 
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Old 11-01-06, 05:00 PM
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Any company that I've ever worked with, would have no issue in cutting a duplicate from an original stamped "do not copy".
Reason being so the customer is'nt fooled into thinking he has key control when he does'nt.
Besides, what would stop one from simply grinding the stamping off altogether and presenting the key for duplication?

If the customer wants key restriction as a part of their security, then they are shown high security locksets that offer it as a part of the package.
Customers are advised of "out of patent" high security keys as well, to encourage new sales and continued key control.

Any properly trained person on a key machine will look at the key profile and not simply the shape of the head to assure the right blank is used, so attempting to confuse anyone via a "do not copy" stamp is limited thinking.
 
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Old 11-05-06, 09:09 PM
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Originally Posted by cuedude
I also have to disagree with you on a key being stamped to fool the people working in the big box stores or wherever so they won't cut the key. Someone wanted that on a key for a reason, and usually (in my experience) it is so the person that holds that key could not go have a copy made
This is the exact example of "fooling" a person into thinking the key cannot be copied. If the ploy works....GREAT!

But in reality, no locksmith will genuinely pass up the opportunity to make some bucks from duplicating a clearly non-restricted key....and there is no ethics or morals involved.
 
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Old 12-02-06, 09:55 AM
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If it isn't too late, I got the key from an assistant manager who was about to walk and he agreed that it made sense for me to have access to trash bags when I need them.
 
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Old 12-02-06, 09:58 AM
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Tell the boss you need a new key because yours is wearing out. If he questions why you have it in the first place, tell him the old assistant manager gave it to you so you could have access to trash bags. Seems reasonable to me.
 
  #17  
Old 12-05-06, 09:49 PM
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Trust a woman to straddle the fence... BUT

I agree with both Cuedude & GlobalLocky. But ethics 101 prevails!!

Everything GlobalLocky said about key control is correct. Unfortunately, when a customer asks for "Do not duplicate" keys, I don't believe it is common for locksmiths to explain the "facts" of key duplication. Often you are talking to a customer who has already made up their mind, and is not interested in spending an extra penny to protect themselves.

However, the square head DND key is sold specifically to locksmiths (most often) for the purpose of adding our company logos, and the DND info. Often times the square head will keep a big box key cutter from knowing what keyway to use, and hence the person has to go to a locksmith.

(I knew a locksmith who put a M11 code on a M1 key, just to bug the other locksmiths in town who had untrained key cutters. It drove them crazy because the keys never fit the lock, and the customers were fighting mad.)

The big box key cutter knows how to put the matching blank into the machine and push the button - not the actual keyways.

But as a mater of business, when we provided a DND key to our customers, we advised them we would not copy the DND key unless the customer provided a signed letter from the origional source, approving the copy. We also advised them we could not guarantee other locksmiths & big boxes adhered to this policy, as the keys were available to all.

Again, as Cuedude says "it was our ethics", and our "company reputation" that we were protecting.

Our origional customer was always given copies of the key WITHOUT the DND designation, and if he really wanted someone to copy that key, he would have given that person a copy without the DND.

We also refused to cut keys for standard Schlage C series keys distributed by our local competitors with the DND stamp.

But, when globallocky says he would not cut high security proprietary keyways, he was probably right. Many of them you cannot obtain unless you have a contract with the dealer or mfr, and then if you did cut the keys, you would be in volation of your contract. And the Medecos & Assa's of the world would think nothing of running our little operations into the ground if we crossed them.

I do not consider Best keys as "proprietary". They want you to think they are, but in fact, anyone can get most of their keys, and should know that their ethics do not put them in line for sainthood.

GlobalLocky, all things considered, as a locksmith we were willing to throw away a $2.25 sale to uphold our ethics and our "perceived" reputation of honesty. When all is said and done, our honest & ethical reputation will earn the most desirable business in the long run. I want those customers who don't hesitate to spend boo-coo bucks for the knowledge that we stand behind our product and ethics.

I don't want to be the lockshop whose bolt cutters were found on top of a building with an alarm going off. That type of ethics can't be good for business (or your relationship with the local cops, who can certainly make life difficult should they wish).

Anyway, something for you both to think on.
mylosttoy
 
  #18  
Old 12-21-06, 10:55 AM
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you're not wanting a COPY (ie: an additional key) - you're wanting a REPLACEMENT because yours is cracked, right?

surely you could get another one made & have the keymakerguy dispose of or destroy the cracked one.

problem solved, no harm done & no additional keys (ie: copies) in existence.

right?
 
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Old 12-21-06, 10:59 AM
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Ahh, but how would the keymaker know it was the rightful owner holding the [cracked] key?

But it was a good point, Annette.
 
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Old 12-21-06, 11:01 AM
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what difference would it make? nothing is being gained or taken away. he has the key. the key works NOW. he's afraid it will eventually break completely. it's not being "copied", it's being "fixed".
 
  #21  
Old 12-21-06, 11:19 AM
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Key

Your employer should replace the key.
 
  #22  
Old 12-25-06, 06:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Annette View Post
you're not wanting a COPY (ie: an additional key) - you're wanting a REPLACEMENT because yours is cracked, right?

surely you could get another one made & have the keymakerguy dispose of or destroy the cracked one.

problem solved, no harm done & no additional keys (ie: copies) in existence.

right?
A REPLACEMENT of your cracked key would be made from the cracked one...therefor it is considered making a copy, whether or not the original is destroyed or not. The ethics of duplicating a clearly restricted High security key is simply wrong if the keycutter is not the authorised company to perform the work.

So to answer Annette....a REPLACEMENT is a COPY....it cant be anything else
 
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Old 01-03-07, 09:47 AM
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The key works for now, I am just being careful with it. I don't use it every day, just when I need supplies, but who in their right mind would steal 9inch thick rolls of TP? There is no way that it will fit in a regular household dispenser. Thank you for the input folks. If the key had a manufacturer name and number, I would just get another key that way, like I have with a couple of other keys.
 
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Old 02-24-07, 11:26 AM
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The employees left a good key like my semi-broken one in an accessible to me area, so I swapped keys. the new key works great.
 
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