Schlage C145 questions

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  #1  
Old 12-08-07, 08:48 AM
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Schlage C145 questions

We're installing about 300 new Schlage locksets that will take the Everest interchangeable cores with C145 keyways.

What can anybody tell me about bumping these locks?

How about availability of blanks? Let's say somebody ordered the blanks and took them to a locksmith. Will they code-cut it? Will they duplicate it? I see blanks online at at least one place but haven't tried to order. Schlage says they're patent protected and so on.

Also when I used to work with Best we had an interlocking thing where staff had an identically cut but serially-numbered key. The "thing" was bolted or welded on the wall and had two cylinders. I put my key in the one cylinder, turn it, and I could remove the key from the other cylinder. This was used to reduce the risk of losing a grand master, and to determine who had the GM.

Is something like this available for Schlage?
 
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Old 12-08-07, 08:15 PM
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I do not have first hand experience with these but I was able to find some info.

I was curious if you were involved in the decision to install these or are you wondering about a management decision?

Looks like the C series keyway are open to locksmiths which would exclude the home centers and such but would still be generally available. The D series is the restricted keyway, that is, not generally available.

Not sure on the bumping but there are no sidebars in the basic Everest and they otherwise use standard pins, besides the check pin.

Have not seen a key interlock for Schlage. One place I was at, the guys were able make one using Medeco mortise cylinders and then had the machine shop replicate them.

Follow this link and navigate to Product Information/Service Manuals/Everest Full Size for more info:

http://everestprimus.schlage.com/essentials/faq.htm#
 
  #3  
Old 12-08-07, 08:52 PM
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Originally Posted by schiejr View Post
I was curious if you were involved in the decision to install these or are you wondering about a management decision?

Looks like the C series keyway are open to locksmiths which would exclude the home centers and such but would still be generally available. The D series is the restricted keyway, that is, not generally available.
1. I was involved in the decision, only to the extent that I said to follow our staff locksmith's specification of the C145 with the Everest whereas the general contractor wanted to use a cheaper lockset but the same core and keyway. We have had door kick-ins and so on so we didn't think this was a place to save money.

2. Sooo it still might be a good idea to stamp them DO NOT COPY? I suppose I could take some of the new keys around and see if I could get copies made. Otherwise if a blank was available and a person knew the bittings, would joe locksmith make them a key?
 
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Old 12-09-07, 08:29 AM
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Typically there is no legal obligation to heed DO NOT COPY under normal circumstances and it is up to the shop policy, but it can't hurt. Talk to some of the locksmiths in your area, see how widespread the use of your blank is. See if they can offer suggestions based on your area. If they know you, they may be able to help.

Cutting a code key for an unrestricted keyway like yours would not typically raise a red flag.You should have went with one of the restricted keyways if unauthorized duplication is a concern.
 
  #5  
Old 12-09-07, 04:51 PM
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Originally Posted by schiejr View Post
You should have went with one of the restricted keyways if unauthorized duplication is a concern.
Understood. I wanted Best but the budget would apparently not support that. Next time I'll ask our locksmith why he didn't spec the D keyway. Probably cost there as well.

Core rotation will probably be around 50% per year so although I'd prefer the restricted keyway, it's not the end of the world. The critical stuff will be on Medeco and the outside doors will be on proximity anyway.
 
  #6  
Old 12-09-07, 07:56 PM
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Personally, having been in the industry a long time, I really do not like the Best IC core product (Schlage or whomever). It is far too easy too pick/bump/bypass etc.

Everest or Primus or even Medeco can be bumped open easily these days.

I would never NEVER recommend those versions of IC core products. I prefer to recommend Bilock as an IC core product for a multitude of reasons.

1. Keys are guaranteed impossible to duplicate, they can only be made as an original.

2. Quick change core product can be interchanged across a broad range of existing manufacturers products without the need for specialist "IC Core" products. Simply use existing hardware with a Bilock cylinder in almost any brand commercially available (not Kwikset because it's junk).

3. Keys come in multiple colored heads. (9000+ color combinations) Braile heads for the vision impaired

4. Bilock is the only 100% guaranteed bump proof pin tumbler product in the USA.

5. It is virtually impossible to pick Bilock.

6. The realistic cost of Bilock products is significantly cheaper than Medeco or Mul-T-Lock and competitively priced to Everest or Primus.

7. Any client who manages to procure the correct profile blank of Everest or Primus or Medeco, could conceivably take them to any key cutter for duplication or to any locksmith with the ability to code cut those blanks. Bilock can only be created as an original, preventing duplication.

8. Having personally picked and bumped Medeco, I am astonished at it's simplicity and the rediculous cost for this product. Americans have been hoodwinked by that company for far too many years. It is no wonder that the product rarely sells in any other country. Schlage products are reasonable quality and the prices seem reasonably fair, but do not compare to Bilock is quality, cost effectiveness or security simplicity.

9. The contractor was probably justified in using cheaper quality locksets with those products as a recommendation. I personally don believe that using the shclage product in place of the cheaper brand would make effective deterrant against door kick ins. If you want to combat the door kick ins, you should look at the Strikemaster II concept. You could use a cheap lockset on a good door with the Strikemaster II and prevent kick ins almost completely.
 
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Old 12-10-07, 12:09 AM
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Originally Posted by GlobalLocky View Post

Everest or Primus or even Medeco can be bumped open easily these days.

I would never NEVER recommend those versions of IC core products. I prefer to recommend Bilock as an IC core product for a multitude of reasons...


8. Having personally picked and bumped Medeco, I am astonished at it's simplicity and the rediculous cost for this product. Americans have been hoodwinked by that company for far too many years. ...

9. The contractor was probably justified in using cheaper quality locksets with those products as a recommendation. I personally don believe that using the shclage product in place of the cheaper brand would make effective deterrant against door kick ins. If you want to combat the door kick ins, you should look at the Strikemaster II concept. You could use a cheap lockset on a good door with the Strikemaster II and prevent kick ins almost completely.
That's interesting. I thought at least that Grade 1 locks would provide some additional protection against bumping. I have requested local dealer info from Bilock.

8. Thanks for mentioning that. I spent quite a bit of time looking at the Medeco literature last week while I was waiting at the locksmith shop. It's easy for me to see how they could get away with it; who's challenging it in the mainstream?

9. The contractor was recommending something else by Schlage. I don't remember the specifics. After the renovation all door frames will be metal, so kick-ins will just bend the frames but break the doors, whereas now the jambs always break when forced and the doors sometimes do. But, I might consider these for home.

Since the Strikemaster II is surface-mounted on the side of the jamb, do you have to mill the door down sometimes to get enough clearance? What happened to the Strikemaster I?
 
  #8  
Old 12-10-07, 06:24 AM
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They are now making "Bump" proof locks. I think Kwikset has some out right now actually. But I don't put stock into Kwiket i.e.e Black and Decker. Locks only buy u time. Just like a safe. As for Medeco my boss always tries to push it. Medeco Keymark and Biaxial. Funny thing is that Medeco let the patent drop on Biaxial and we can order blanks through are provider and cut them ourselves. Before you needed a credit card with the key information on it. We have a whole box of Everest collecting dust on our shelves.
 
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Old 12-10-07, 08:29 AM
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Originally Posted by ArgMeMatey View Post
That's interesting. I thought at least that Grade 1 locks would provide some additional protection against bumping. I have requested local dealer info from Bilock.

8. Thanks for mentioning that. I spent quite a bit of time looking at the Medeco literature last week while I was waiting at the locksmith shop. It's easy for me to see how they could get away with it; who's challenging it in the mainstream?

9. The contractor was recommending something else by Schlage. I don't remember the specifics. After the renovation all door frames will be metal, so kick-ins will just bend the frames but break the doors, whereas now the jambs always break when forced and the doors sometimes do. But, I might consider these for home.

Since the Strikemaster II is surface-mounted on the side of the jamb, do you have to mill the door down sometimes to get enough clearance? What happened to the Strikemaster I?
Check out this video taken at DefCon in Vegas this year. There is much discussion going on because Medeco locks are on the White House and many government properties.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D1LH7lrftKA
 
  #10  
Old 12-10-07, 08:41 AM
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As a result of the information about bumping that has surfaced in the last year, A task group has been established to advise the Underwriters Laboratory and ANSI using bumping as a grading for classification.

Previously bumping was not taken into consideration when rating Grade 1 or 2 or 3.

UL437 rating does not require bump resistance as a component.

For additional proof of bumping in the mainstream listen to this recent NPR report...

http://www.npr.org/templates/player/...429&m=16298390
 
  #11  
Old 03-15-10, 01:14 PM
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Originally Posted by In the Know View Post
...Chiseling and removing wood to fit the locks will also result in a much weakened door frame. Unless extra reinforcement is taken to strengthen the door frame, a forced entry or kick-in burglary, will split open the wooden door frame around the lock. That's where the StrikeMaster II door security-type products come in.
I am no longer on this project, but we were not trying to prevent kick-ins and forced entries. Both are inevitable whether it's the boyfriend, a burglar, warrant service, or fire department.

After working this market for a few years and seeing the ho-hum approach of the staff locksmith toward replacing doors, I realized that the idea was to minimize the damage to the frame and let the door sacrifice itself. I recall one kick-in where it played out just like that. I would have preferred that just the door was ruined but the lockset failed as well. The only salvage items were the cylinder and core. The metal frame needed a new strike plate.
 
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