screwdriver magnetize tip?

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  #1  
Old 02-16-09, 11:03 AM
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screwdriver magnetize tip?

I posted this inquiry in the hand/power tools forum section too, but because I'm working with a lock-related mechanism on a door, I also thought others here might have ideas/comments too.

Anyone know of an easy and effective way of magnetizing the very tip of a screwdriver so that it the force of the magnetization holds the screw on good and strong? Most of the magnetic-tipped screwdrivers I've ever used just hold the screw on relatively weak. For what I need it for I'm not interested in the type of screwdriver that has the little mechanical clip on on the end that holds the screw, but I really need a good strong magentic force at the business end of the screwdriver to hold the screw from coming loose from where its slot meets into the driver.

(By the way, what I need this for is to get the end caps off of a door opener crashbar. The screws to do so are enclosed in there some distance through narrow access holes, and can drop down easily and become un-retrievable if unscrewed with typical weak magnetic tipped screwdriver.)
 
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Old 02-16-09, 02:36 PM
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Get a magnet, place it at the bottom portion of the screwdriver shank, and pull back a few times.
 
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Old 02-16-09, 03:35 PM
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Originally Posted by HotinOKC View Post
Get a magnet, place it at the bottom portion of the screwdriver shank, and pull back a few times.
Would you happen to know whether the stronger the magnet I use in doing that, the stronger the magnetization of the screwdriver will be? I did try doing that with one of those magnetic discs about three inches in diameter that come on the end of those magnetic nail picker-upper rods, and although that magnet seemed fairly strong, it still didn't seem to transfer much of the magnetization to the shaft of the screwdriver, just a little but not much as I would like; screw still falls off easily if shaken or bumped slightly. Right now I don't happen to have a stronger magnet with which to try, but wondering if it would help to use a stronger magnet.
 
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Old 02-16-09, 04:29 PM
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Another way to strengthen the magnetic effect is to attach a permanent magnet farther up the shaft. You may need an extra long screwdriver to build this, but it will help.

Bud
 
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Old 02-16-09, 04:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Bud9051 View Post
Another way to strengthen the magnetic effect is to attach a permanent magnet farther up the shaft. You may need an extra long screwdriver to build this, but it will help.
Do you mean like maybe tape or otherwise somehow secure a magnet on the upper end of the shaft, and because it'll be permanently attached it'll strengthen the magnetic effect over time better than just running a magnet up and down the shaft like others have suggested?
 
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Old 02-16-09, 05:22 PM
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Running a really strong magnet along the shaft will give it some permanent magnetism. Not back and forth, stroke it from handle to tip and straight away at the tip (repeat 100 times, not kidding). If you were to stop in the middle and pull the magnet off it would scramble the little magnets inside. Once you have it as good as you can, test it. A hand full of small nails or screws and see how many it will pick up. Then attach a magnet of some kind, something with a definite north/south polarity, up near the handle and test it again. My experience is the extra magnet will add to what is already there and give you a stronger more permanent magnet on the tip of your screwdriver. If it works, just tape it in place.

Bud
 
  #7  
Old 02-16-09, 05:24 PM
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Would you happen to know the brand name of the crash bar? is it on a glass "storefront" type door? Are there (2) holes in each endcap, with the screw head visible about 1" beyond the hole? Is this in the USA? If yes to all, it sounds like an Adams Rite panic bar........worry not, pull out on the cap while you unscrew it with a normal screwdriver, the screws will remain in the cap when it comes off. Occasionally a screw will dislodge in the process, but it just falls into the cap...you'll see it, it won't mess anything up.
 
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Old 02-16-09, 05:54 PM
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Originally Posted by rstripe View Post
Would you happen to know the brand name of the crash bar? is it on a glass "storefront" type door? Are there (2) holes in each endcap, with the screw head visible about 1" beyond the hole? Is this in the USA? If yes to all, it sounds like an Adams Rite panic bar........worry not, pull out on the cap while you unscrew it with a normal screwdriver, the screws will remain in the cap when it comes off. Occasionally a screw will dislodge in the process, but it just falls into the cap...you'll see it, it won't mess anything up.
Yes, exactly. This is an Adams Rite panic bar as you describe. I can understand that if I pull out on the cap while unscrewing the screw(s) that I'll still be able to get the screws later if they dislodge. But what about on re-assembly, when I have to put the screws back in through the holes? That's the point where I am worried how to keep the screws on the tip of the screwdriver until I get the screws started onto into the threaded hole where they go. I worry they'll keep falling off inside the cap before I get them to the hole.

Also, since you're familiar with this panic bar, are those caps on the end very tricky to get back into place once you take them off? Reason I need to get them off is so I can remove the panic bar so I can lubricate the inner part of the latchbolt mechanism good. Thanks!
 
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Old 02-17-09, 09:54 AM
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All will become clear when you remove the caps....the screws are "captured" on a yoke that is part of the cap. The screws will probably fall out of the yokes when you set the caps down, but when you're ready to re-assemble, use a pair of tweezers or needle-nose pliers to re-position the screws.

Note that the two caps are different; the latch end has a long metal gizmo attatched to it---when re-assembling that cap, it may not want to seat completely as the metal thing will need to be compressed----just get the screws started, then tighten ea one just a little at a time to compress the metal piece till it's snug.

One other thing...you'll see these screws are self-tapping---this is not designed to be taken apart repeatedly, or they'll eventually strip. put a drop of oil on ea screw when re-assembling, try to hit the original thread, then do not over-tighten.
 
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Old 02-17-09, 08:30 PM
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Originally Posted by rstripe View Post
All will become clear ...
Okay, rstripe, now that I took the panic cap off (on the end toward the latch) I see what the situation is, and see exactly what you describe how those screws fit, and of course the long metal gizmo you also mentioned. I was able to take the cap off twice and put it back on twice now, as I was checking things out behind it there a couple of times.

The issue I'm dealing with involves the latch bolt(s) which are being prevented from popping all the way back out on a frequent basis after pushing the panic bar and opening the door. When I take that cap off, the bolt(s) work fine and pop back out like they're supposed to after the panic bar is released. But whenever the cap is on, for some reason that is not at all obvious to me, it somehow is sticking and not sliding all the back into the position it normally would be after releasing it, which causes the latch bolt(s) not to pop all the way back out. The remedy for this is to have to give a slight pull back on the panic bar each time. It's not a hard sticking, but rather just a slight enough sticking to keep those latchbolt(s) from popping all the way back out. I can see that the inside of the cap is doesn't seem to be dragging or rubbing on the bar anywhere, it looks free and clear, but I swear whenever that cap is in place something seems to be sticking or otherwise rubbing somehow and is keeping the panic bar from springing all the way back into its released position thus keeping those latchbolt(s) from popping the way back out. With the cap taken off and then pushing on the panic bar, all works well and fine.

I've WD40'd just about anywhere in that whole area that looks as if it could use it, but it continues to act the same.

If you can comprehend my description of the problem and the actions occuring, what seems to you might be happening and causing this? I am stumped at this point. Thanks again for your assistance!
 
  #11  
Old 02-17-09, 10:11 PM
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IMHO.....stop the WD40! it creates more problems than it's worth.

I'd suggest it is an alignment problem.

you could try widening the holes (fixing holes), that might allow for the mechanism to "play" a bit.

Sometimes, as a door and frame ages, the alignment suffers from natural "weathering".....widening the fixing holes and not overtightening the fixing bolts (screws) can compensate for the weathering.
 
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Old 02-17-09, 10:38 PM
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Originally Posted by GlobalLocky View Post
IMHO.....stop the WD40! you could try widening the holes (fixing holes), that might allow for the mechanism to "play" a bit... widening the fixing holes and not overtightening the fixing bolts (screws) can compensate for the weathering.
Ok won't use any more WD40. For what it's worth, here's a link to photo of the side of the door showing the end cap of the panic bar we're talking about. (Please also see my continued inquiry following the photo in this post.)http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/b...1/IMG_1000.jpg

I guess I don't know what you mean for sure by widening the "fixing holes". Would these be what rstripe was referring to (in his previous post in this thread) as the "yoke" that is part of the cap onto which the screws are captured as he described it? If so, are you suggesting that I might try to drill the inside diameter of these yokes out a little (which would be widening them) so that the screw(s) are secured more loosely within them? Also, I wouldn't say that when I screwed the fixing bolts back in that I necessarily overtightened them, or that they seemed overly tight in the first place, but if I am understanding correctly you are also suggesting that maybe I just screw them in kinda loosely and not tighten much at all?
Thank you.
 
  #13  
Old 02-17-09, 11:04 PM
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It sounds like the crash bar has shifted it's alignment on the door frame. This impacts the "cam" that operates the latch mechanism.

Resetting the alignment might solve your dilemna.

Does the latch work fine, when the door is open or does it stick when the door is closed?

It is also possible that the cam, that operates the latch from inside....is bent....causing friction on the mechanism.

This is why I suggested making sure the alignment is "perfect".

That being, you might need to lift the whole bar slightly before retightening......comprehende?
 
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Old 02-17-09, 11:07 PM
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If the cam is bent....you will likely need a replacement.

with the crash bar off (completely removed from door), can you operate the internal mechanism without the latch sticking?

if so...then it is definitely an alignment problem or the tail might be bent.
 
  #15  
Old 02-17-09, 11:20 PM
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Originally Posted by GlobalLocky View Post
Resetting the alignment might solve your dilemna. Does the latch work fine, when the door is open or does it stick when the door is closed? That being, you might need to lift the whole bar slightly before retightening.
The latch only sticks when the end of the crashbar on that side of the door fails to spring back into its normal popped back position (the default position the crashbar goes to unless pushed in). Only when the cap is on, as I mentioned, does this sticking occur.
 
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Old 02-17-09, 11:26 PM
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Originally Posted by GlobalLocky View Post
If the cam is bent....you will likely need a replacement. with the crash bar off (completely removed from door), can you operate the internal mechanism without the latch sticking? if so...then it is definitely an alignment problem or the tail might be bent.
I'll check if I can operate the internal mechanism with the crash bar removed. If I can, what is it I need to align again? The crash bar? If so, how is that done?

You also mention the cam might be bent or the "tail" might be bent. What tail?
 
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Old 02-17-09, 11:44 PM
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Originally Posted by sgull View Post
I'll check if I can operate the internal mechanism with the crash bar removed. If I can, what is it I need to align again? The crash bar? If so, how is that done?

You also mention the cam might be bent or the "tail" might be bent. What tail?
The position of the crash bar on the door frame is out of alignment. If it operates properly with the bar removed....you need to reset the alignment of the bar.

If the cam on the mechanism is bent (the part that operates the internal mechanism) it will need replacing I suggest.

here is an exploded view....i think this is it:

http://www.adamsrite.com/media/pdf/p...300part-08.pdf

Part No#4 Cam might be bent
 
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Old 02-17-09, 11:54 PM
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  #19  
Old 02-19-09, 06:43 PM
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Your photo shows a glass/alum. storefront type door so, if memory serves me, it's the 8400 series in which the cylindrical protrusion that supports the operating cam is part of the bar chassis itself, and it fits fairly snugly into the latch portion of the lock, and even with a loose set screw, it's not likely there's a mis-alignment issue between the bar and lock.

How old is the device and how much use does it get? What I have seen, is as these bars age, the outer push bar sags and drags on the inner stationary bar due to worn linkages. This is evident after end cap removal as the bar will continue to drag.

HOWEVER, you said the drag is only with the caps re-installed.
Try this: With the latch-end endcap installed, grasp the bar and check for lateral play---the outer push bar should not slide horizontally at all...if it does, the bar has likely been hit on the latch end with a push-cart or dolly, and this play allows the bar, as it is pushed in, to shift slightly to the hinge end and allow the cap to rub the stationary part of the bar, just as it bottoms out, ergo, it sticks.
 
  #20  
Old 02-19-09, 07:15 PM
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That sheet-metal thing on the latch end endcap is supposed to bottom-out internally against the support bracket about
1/8" before the cap itself seats flush to the end of the bar.
Because the bar-return springs are fairly weak by design, just a slight rubbing of the end cap at the end of it'stravel can cause the bar to stick. You may have to stretch the metal piece with a pair of pliers to restore it's proper length before re-assembly.

Other causes: rare, but check for broken spring(s) near the bar linkages, and in the lock itself....(both the big and small latches should have intact coil springs). And, a lot of friction takes place within the latch assembly so be sure its well lubricated, (NOT with WD-40--it's too thin & won't last).
 
  #21  
Old 02-19-09, 08:16 PM
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Originally Posted by GlobalLocky View Post
Yep, pretty sure thats it...
 
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Old 02-19-09, 08:22 PM
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Originally Posted by rstripe View Post
That sheet-metal thing on the latch end endcap is supposed to bottom-out internally against the support bracket about 1/8" before the cap itself seats flush to the end of the bar. Because the bar-return springs are fairly weak by design, just a slight rubbing of the end cap at the end of it's travel can cause the bar to stick. You may have to stretch the metal piece with a pair of pliers to restore it's proper length before re-assembly.
Okay, thanks rstripe. I'll look closely at what you're describing and maybe try stretching that metal piece if it seems like it would help, since so far nothing else I've tried has... will let you know after I get the chance to fidget with it some more.
 
  #23  
Old 02-20-09, 07:16 AM
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Based on your pic. I am inclined to agree with rstripe on the model.

http://adamsrite.com/media/pdf/v2/ED...e-aluminum.pdf


the other one sounds similar although the crash bar is fitted inside the door body with the push bar pushing into the body of the door.

I'm quite sure yours will probably activate by the inside keyhole.
 
  #24  
Old 02-20-09, 08:22 AM
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Originally Posted by GlobalLocky View Post
Based on your pic. I am inclined to agree with rstripe on the model. http://adamsrite.com/media/pdf/v2/ED...e-aluminum.pdf the other one sounds similar although the crash bar is fitted inside the door body with the push bar pushing into the body of the door. I'm quite sure yours will probably activate by the inside keyhole.
Yes, the model you cite above definitely matches, as close as I can tell, the model I'm dealing with. The crash bar is not fitted into the body of the door. For clarification on my part, when you say it'll probably activate by the inside keyhole, what is the "it" to which you are referring, please? The crash bar?
Thanks GL. I hope to get a chance to examine and tinker with this mechanism again soon, and will post followup about it.
 
  #25  
Old 02-20-09, 02:27 PM
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He just means you have the 8400 series that surface-mounts to the door, and that the cam protrudes thru the hole in the door that could otherwise be used for a "keyed mortise cylinder" if you didn't have a crash bar in place.
 
  #26  
Old 02-20-09, 08:37 PM
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oh well no photos

Note: This is an edited post of a previous one in this thread (see quoted in GlobalLocky post #27) of which I have deleted photos by accident. So anyway, here's what I already said, but minus any photos (which are gone for good now)...

I did try loosening the two screws that secure the cap on the latch end, and when they are not tightened down at all and just screwed in loosely the sticking of the crashbar doesn't happen, although the bar still doesn't really just spring back as quickly as it seems it should after you push on it and let go, but at least it doesn't stick. Also, when installing the cap, sheet metal gizmo attached to the cap does seem to bottom out internally against the support bracked about 1/8" before the cap itself seats flush to the end of the bar, as rstripe described should be happening. Therefore it seemed unnecessary to try to stretch the metal piece as also suggested, so I didn't do that. Anyway as I mentioned, keeping those screws loose seems to make a definite improvement in having that crashbar and the latchbolts function without the sticking problem, but operation still doesn't seem perfect. May be the best it'll get with these particular used components, which would probably be fine as long as stays the same and doesn't start acting up again. Any further comments welcome. thanks
 

Last edited by sgull; 02-20-09 at 10:56 PM. Reason: broken photo links
  #27  
Old 02-20-09, 10:38 PM
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Originally Posted by sgull View Post
Posted below are links to photos I took of the Adams-Rite crashbar we've been discussing. I did try loosening the two screws that secure the cap on the latch end, and when they are not tightened down at all and just screwed in loosely the sticking of the crashbar doesn't happen, although the bar still doesn't really just spring back as quickly as it seems it should after you push on it and let go, but at least it doesn't stick. Also, when installing the cap, sheet metal gizmo attached to the cap does seem to bottom out internally against the support bracked about 1/8" before the cap itself seats flush to the end of the bar, as rstripe described should be happening. Therefore it seemed unnecessary to try to stretch the metal piece as also suggested, so I didn't do that. Anyway as I mentioned, keeping those screws loose seems to make a definite improvement in having that crashbar and the latchbolts function without the sticking problem, but operation still doesn't seem perfect. May be the best it'll get with these particular used components, which would probably be fine as long as stays the same and doesn't start acting up again. The last photo is of the cap with the metal prong thing as it is laid there on the floor to take a picture of. Any further comments welcome. thanks.
http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/b...adamsrite1.jpg
http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/b...adamsrite2.jpg
http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/b...adamsrite3.jpg
http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/b...adamsrite4.jpg
http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/b...adamsrite5.jpg
http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/b...adamsrite6.jpg

oops your links are broken
 
  #28  
Old 02-20-09, 10:59 PM
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Originally Posted by GlobalLocky View Post
oops your links are broken
Oops, durnit. See post #26...
 
  #29  
Old 02-21-09, 09:04 AM
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OK, well we're getting closer to a fix...yup, don't need to stretch the metal thing, I guess it's just wear in the linkages allowing the end cap to contact the bar...I'm assuming these are plastic end caps,(later models use metal) so since the plastic is fairly thick, you might take a course file or rasp and file down the back edge, (the edge nearest the door). Alternately, you could fashion a shim to go between the cap & bar. I think the point of contact is along the back inner edge of the cap, so that's where the additional clearance needs to be.
 
  #30  
Old 02-21-09, 06:43 PM
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Originally Posted by rstripe View Post
I guess it's just wear in the linkages allowing the end cap to contact the bar...I'm assuming these are plastic end caps,(later models use metal) so since the plastic is fairly thick, you might take a course file or rasp and file down the back edge, (the edge nearest the door). Alternately, you could fashion a shim to go between the cap & bar. I think the point of contact is along the back inner edge of the cap, so that's where the additional clearance needs to be.
Yeah they are plastic caps and not metal ones. But I swear when I watch the action when I push on the outer bar and let go, there is no obvious rubbing or dragging of the interior of the cap on the inner bar and in fact on looking at while pushing on it a and letting go there seems to be a good amount of clearance all around the interior of the cap. But maybe you're right, I'll go ahead take the cap off again and try to rasp out some of the interior thickness of the back inner edge of the cap and then see what happens...

By the way, what is the recommended proper lubricant for mechanisms/latches such as these? Would graphite help at all on the latchbolts or other related parts? thanks.
 
  #31  
Old 02-22-09, 07:54 AM
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You might smear some grease around the inner surface of the cap, re-install, operate a couple of times, and the grease should leave evidence where rubbung occurs, if any. If you're satisfied there's no rubbing, the only thing left is when the metal thing bottoms out against the internal linkage bracket, it puts the bracket in a bind, causing increased friction on it's pivot....if you've not removed the outer bar yet, do so now, (with caps removed & door propped open, slide the bar towards the hinge side of the door until the front bracket is free, then slide the bar toward the latch side until the rear bracket is free) both brackets should pivot freely.
 
  #32  
Old 02-22-09, 08:08 AM
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(cont.)...put a drop of oil on the pivots, re-assemble the bar, making sure the steel insert in the bar goes toward the latch end of the door, & before replacing the endcap, with the 2 screws in place, carefully place a washer on the end of each screw, so that when you re-assemble it, it will space the cap out so that when tight, the metal thing doesn't put so much pressure on the inner bracket. Whew! This is becoming a quest, for sure!
 
  #33  
Old 02-22-09, 08:40 AM
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Originally Posted by rstripe View Post
(cont.)...put a drop of oil on the pivots, re-assemble the bar, making sure the steel insert in the bar goes toward the latch end of the door, & before replacing the endcap, with the 2 screws in place, carefully place a washer on the end of each screw, so that when you re-assemble it, it will space the cap out so that when tight, the metal thing doesn't put so much pressure on the inner bracket.
I'll try removing the outer bar (no I haven't done that yet) and then try to replace it, following the instructions you provided. While the outer bar is off, I'll put a drop of oil on the pivots then put washers on the end of those two screws as you suggest. This internal linkage bracket you mention that may be binding, is it NOT showing in the view of the breakdown on this page? I don't think it is. I probably won't be able to see the bracket until I get the outer bar off, unless there happens to be another breakdown available that shows it. http://www.adamsrite.com/media/pdf/p...400part-08.pdf
 
  #34  
Old 02-22-09, 08:46 AM
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(cont) Also, you were saying before how that sheet-metal thing on the latch end endcap is supposed to bottom-out internally against the support bracket about
1/8" before the cap itself seats flush to the end of the bar. If I put washers on the end of those screws won't that prevent that from happening as it should?
 
  #35  
Old 02-23-09, 01:20 PM
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yeah, the diagram hides the brackets, but you'll see them as you slide the bar off...they're kinda square & flat, & they slide into a guide channel or groove of the bar. Pay attention as you slide the bar off so you can see the particular grooves the brackets slide into, so you can re-assemble easy.

Assuming you have plenty of clearance under the end cap,
it's not important that the "metal thing" bottom out under pressure internally---it will become clear how it works when you slide the bar off...the metal thing is suppossed to maintain pressure on the front bracket to keep the bracket bottomed against a staked-in steel "stop plate" in the bar, so there is no lateral movement after assembly.
 
  #36  
Old 02-23-09, 01:56 PM
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And, again, if you do have plenty of clearance under the front (latch end) cap, you can tolerate a wee bit of lateral (or slide play) in the bar with no consequence....the idea being to releave the pressure the metal thing places on the front bracket.

You're question on lubrication probably opens up a can of worms...ie., lots of opinions out there, & I know there are some new space-age lubricants introduced in the last 20 years
but I still use the basics: most lock parts (other than the key cylinder)--Lithium (white) grease, if you don't mind the mess,
or a drop of oil on parts that you can't get grease into...
Key cylinder--Graphite, if you're cylinder is starting out clean & dry of other wet lubricants, otherwise Tri-Flow, or, one that's been around forever--LockEse (Sp?)
 
  #37  
Old 02-24-09, 06:16 AM
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you still have a can of Lockease?

Wow....that stuff hasnt been made in years.

Last container I saw was the traditional shape but made of plastic.

Is yours the metal can?
 
  #38  
Old 02-24-09, 08:09 AM
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  #39  
Old 02-24-09, 08:18 AM
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Is it really that good? I need to lube some outside locks (lots of blowing dust and such here) and I know better than to use WD.

Ace - Lock-Ease Graphited Lock Fluid
 
  #40  
Old 02-24-09, 12:19 PM
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I've got the plastic one from Ace Hdwe, had it for years, don't use it much simply because it's not as handy as spray-can lubes...I've actually been using Wonder Lube marketed by Remington Arms in lock cylinders; it's like WD-40 but with teflon for residual effect--cheaper than WD-40. been using it for a few years, seems to be ok. Anybody else know anything about it?
 
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