key sticks

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Old 01-05-11, 04:39 PM
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key sticks

Got this kind of Schlage lock on our facility door, and the key has lately been sticking and stubborn very hard to remove, and as well the mechanism inside feels rather sticky and un-smooth when turning the key. We have the ability to remove the cylinder if we need to, but don't know whether we should and even if we did what exactly to look for or do to improve the situation. We have tried a little graphite into the keyhole but its no help. Any comment/advice appreciated.

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Old 01-05-11, 05:46 PM
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got a graphite squirter from my local lock shop it includes a small nozzle that allows me to squirt the graphit deep into the lock, that would more than likely take care of the problem


murphy was a optimist
 
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Old 01-05-11, 06:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Speedwrench View Post
got a graphite squirter from my local lock shop it includes a small nozzle that allows me to squirt the graphit deep into the lock, that would more than likely take care of the problem
Yeah if I can get such a thing I'll try that. I tried my best to puff the graphite into the keyhole with the long-nosed plastic bottle that it comes in, but it didn't seem to get in there deep very good. So I tried piling a little on each side of the key and working it in, but it still didn't seem to help, didn't seem to get the graphite in there very good. thanks
 
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Old 01-05-11, 06:22 PM
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Wd 40................................................
 
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Old 01-05-11, 06:26 PM
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Originally Posted by lawrosa View Post
Wd 40................................................
Tried that already, before the graphite. Didn't seem to help. Actually I didn't try the WD40, somebody else did but I don't know whether they squirted it in deep with the long nozzle that usually will be with a can of WD40. I guess it wouldn't hurt to go ahead and do WD40 again, making sure the WD40 gets squirted in there deep with the long nozzle?
 

Last edited by sgull; 01-05-11 at 06:46 PM.
  #6  
Old 01-05-11, 07:01 PM
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If you have the core (control) key, remove the core and check the operating key while holding the core in your hand....if it is still difficult to remove the key and/or the key is hard to turn, take it to your smithy for repair/adjustment.

If the key operates fine with the core in your hand, it suggests the problem is in the outer handle assy. of the Von Duprin exit device. This can be fairly invasive work and you might want to call a smithy to service & lube these internal parts.
 
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Old 01-05-11, 07:48 PM
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Originally Posted by rstripe View Post
If you have the core (control) key, remove the core and check the operating key while holding the core in your hand....if it is still difficult to remove the key and/or the key is hard to turn, take it to your smithy for repair/adjustment. If the key operates fine with the core in your hand, it suggests the problem is in the outer handle assy. of the Von Duprin exit device. This can be fairly invasive work and you might want to call a smithy to service & lube these internal parts.
We do have the control key, so can do as you suggest. Thanks for your expertise.
 
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Old 01-06-11, 10:02 AM
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It turns out that the core has broken pieces inside it, and thus needs to be replaced. However, a key is stuck in the core keyway and will absolutely not pull out now. Therefore, we'll need to acquire a replacement Schlage cylinder (if that's the correct term for it) like this one http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/b...1/IMG_1458.jpg
I have no idea what model/series or type otherwise it is. Perhaps by the picture someone here can identify please for me, what exactly this part is called (cylinder?) and what to be asking for while searching for a replacement?
 

Last edited by sgull; 01-06-11 at 12:25 PM.
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Old 01-06-11, 08:00 PM
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Pic's a bit fuzzy, so confirm for me that the back side has a flat bar projecting from a hole in the housing, with 2 screws on either side of the bar. If so, removing the screws will allow the housing to separate from a "Rim" cylinder. Can you turn the stuck key to the 12:00 (removal) position but still won't come out? Hold the plug in with the finger of one hand while you try to remove the key with the other. Once you have the operating key out you can remove the core with the core key to further diagnose.
 
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Old 01-06-11, 09:30 PM
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Originally Posted by rstripe View Post
confirm for me that the back side has a flat bar projecting from a hole in the housing, with 2 screws on either side of the bar. If so, removing the screws will allow the housing to separate from a "Rim" cylinder. Can you turn the stuck key to the 12:00 (removal) position but still won't come out? Hold the plug in with the finger of one hand while you try to remove the key with the other. Once you have the operating key out you can remove the core with the core key to further diagnose.
Yes I can confirm to you that the back side is as you describe. The stuck operating key does not pull out in the 12:00 position (or any other position), and remains stuck even when holding the plug in with one finger while trying to remove the key with the other. I'd like to be able to remove the core but am unable because am having NO luck pulling out the stuck key. Part of the core in the back area through which the flat bar projects has broken into pieces -- two broken fragments. So I'd like to be able to acquire an identical replacement of the housing and/or entire cylinder (I do have a replacement core already, so wouldn't need that). But I need to be able to identify specifically what housing/cylinder it is (model/type or whatever) in order to acquire the proper part. Just browsing online I haven't come across an identical-looking Schlage rim cylinder.
 
  #11  
Old 01-07-11, 12:35 PM
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Here's a picture of the cylinder (with key still stuck in it) which shows how it's broken, what I was describing in my previous post: http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/b...1/IMG_1459.jpg
 
  #12  
Old 01-08-11, 09:23 PM
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Well, first the key: If the key spins freely round & round and won't come out even when holding the plug in, there may be a tipped or jammed pin, or a badly cut duplicate key.

Now the parts: Your 1st pic shows a Von Duprin 33 series exit device with
a 333NL-TP or a 337NL-TP trim (outside handle)......the 33 series and trim was discontinued around
8 to 10 years ago, and replaced with the 33A, and the VD catalogue does not list parts for the old 33's anymore.
You will need to contact Von Duprin, as they may still have these parts on request.
 
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Old 01-08-11, 09:30 PM
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Just to further clarify, the newer 33A's use a similar trim, the 386NL, (but does not have the push button) but I don't think it will work with the old 33 device, however check with VD to be sure.
 
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Old 01-08-11, 09:32 PM
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Thanks for the info on the VD exit device parts, however I don't understand why I'd need to replace any of exit device parts. It seems to that what I need to acquire for replacement is the Schlage cylinder/housing (because the key will not pull out) so that then I could just go ahead put a replacement core into the replacement cylinder.
 
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Old 01-09-11, 07:49 AM
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While the removable core itself is a Schlage Large Format, the cylinder housing is not familiar to me. The 2 screw holes appear to be threaded, which leads me to believe there is no "Rim" cylinder within the housing, and so that housing is probably a Von Duprin part No. Since Schlage and Von Duprin are owned by the same parent company, contacting either one should get you an answer.

Sorry I couldn't be of more help, but both companies have pretty good customer service depts.
 
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Old 01-09-11, 10:18 AM
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Originally Posted by rstripe View Post
If the key spins freely round & round and won't come out even when holding the plug in, there may be a tipped or jammed pin, or a badly cut duplicate key.
The stuck operating key had been in regular use for years in this lock, without issue, so we can likely rule out that it is a badly cut duplicate. Insofar was attempting to "hold the plug in" while at the same time trying to pull the key out, could you perhaps describe to me a little more specifically how this is done? Because it seems to me if I'm trying to pull the key out then at the same time I'm pulling on the plug, so how do I "hold" the plug? Also, if it's the case that there might be, as you mention, a tipped or jammed pin, would it be somehow possible to either un-tip it or un-jam it with the core still within the housing and the key still stuck in? If I do finally manage to remove the stuck operating key and then attempt to remove the core with the control key, how likely might it be that my control would then just get stuck in this damaged core?
 

Last edited by sgull; 01-09-11 at 12:56 PM.
  #17  
Old 01-09-11, 06:34 PM
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The "Plug" is the 1/2" dia. piece that has the keyhole, and rotates with the key. It has a retainer on it's back end which holds the plug within the surrounding "Shell".
The shell & plug as a unit is called the "Core", in this case a "Removable Core".

If the plug retainer becomes loose (some retainers use screws which can gradually loosen) the plug will begin to slide out with the key as you attempt to remove the key. This plug movement may be imperceptable (less than 1/16") yet that is enough to cause the pins to mis-align with the holes in the shell, and thereby trap the key. By pushing in on the plug you are keeping the pins aligned for easy key removal.

Some plugs are retained by a "Circlip" very much like that which is shown in your
2nd photo...Usually, when the circlip comes off, the plug will come completely out in your hand when you pull on the key.
 
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Old 01-09-11, 06:51 PM
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Not having worked on a Schlage Large Format Removable Core, I don't recall the principle of operation of the core retainer, (Global?) but it could be that that circlip is your plug retainer, that has come off, but the plug is still being retained by the core retaining pin, which allows a tiny bit of in-out play, just enough to mis-align the pin-tumblers.

A lot of theories here, question is, can you pull the key out if you hold the plug in?
 
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Old 01-11-11, 09:28 AM
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Originally Posted by rstripe View Post
question is, can you pull the key out if you hold the plug in?
No I cannot pull the key out if I hold the plug in. The key turns round and round, and of course the plug along with it. I hold/push in the plug and try to remove the key, it won't come. I hold/push in the plug while turning the plug and the key while trying to pull the key out, but it won't come.
 
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Old 01-11-11, 07:20 PM
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For purposes of description in order to identify (to either Schlage or Von Duprin when I call them) the specific part(s) I would need to repair/replace the situation as shown in the picture included in post #11 in this thread, I am clueless as to how the long flat bar piece (shown in the picture lying among the circlip and the two broken fragments), fits into the housing or perhaps core. Is the piece as shown obviously broken off, or is it a separate piece that fits in somehow?
Any comment appreciated..
 
  #21  
Old 01-12-11, 07:50 PM
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The flat bar is a "Tailpiece" and is almost always the weakest link between a key cylinder and the boltworks, so it's usually the first to break when the boltworks become hard to operate due to age, binding, lack of lube etc. And it does appear that the tailpiece and associated parts are broken.

You have correctly tried to compensate for a possible loose plug in trying to remove the key, and though a tipped/jammed pin trapping the key is not at all common (unless the core has been master-keyed in an unprofessional manner), I have no other explanation.

While you may be able to drive the core out using a large drift punch and hammer, and you can always order a new core with your particular keyway, the larger problem may be obtaining a new V.D. housing, (obsolete?). You see, the broken tailpiece may be part of the housing, and not part of the Schlage core.

Again, maybe others with more experience on the old VD33's can advise you.
Schlage and Von Duprin are very closely intertwined now, so a call to VD should resolve the question.
 
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Old 01-12-11, 08:01 PM
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As far as "what do I tell them?" (VD) I'd say: I have an old 33 exit device with a
333NL-TP or 337NL-TP in which the key cylinder tailpiece is broken, and the key, tho freely turning, will not come out. It has a Schlage Large Format Removable Core. What parts do I need?
 
  #23  
Old 01-13-11, 12:33 PM
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Originally Posted by rstripe View Post
As far as "what do I tell them?" (VD) I'd say: I have an old 33 exit device with a 333NL-TP or 337NL-TP in which the key cylinder tailpiece is broken, and the key, tho freely turning, will not come out. It has a Schlage Large Format Removable Core. What parts do I need?
VD directed me another outfit that has taken control of parts for the discontinued 33. This other outfit said they have various parts for that exit device but that key cylinder and tailpiece as well are not Von Duprin parts but that if the tailpiece and or the cylinder (which he said could be manufactured by at least half a dozen companies) is broken that the locksmith would probably have one that would work but only after he was able to inspect the broken mechanism to determine specifically the parts needed.
 
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Old 01-13-11, 02:30 PM
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Well, that's probably good news, now you've got to persuade the core to come out...I'd lay the cylindrical housing on top of a big table vise with the jaws open just far enuf to allow the core to be driven out with a punch. Hopefully no damage will occur to the housing.
 
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Old 01-13-11, 03:59 PM
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With the housing in the vise I was able to persuade the core out of it with a hammer and a punch, which required multiple rather forceful smacks and which broke a big chunk off the already damaged core. It's hard to tell for sure, but it doesn't look as if the housing was damaged in the process. Here's a pic, also showing the key which came out as an added bonus. http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/b...1/IMG_1467.jpg
 
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Old 01-13-11, 07:11 PM
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Question: If I am able to acquire the proper replacement tail piece to replace the broken one (as shown in pic in post #11 in this thread), how do I attach or connect it to the back of my new replacement core so that it is secured/installed into it (as can be seen projecting from back of cylinder in pic in post #8)?
 
  #27  
Old 01-13-11, 08:58 PM
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A new Schlage core will look just like the one shown with a knurled cap on the back of the plug, and will accept several differently-shaped & lengthed tailpieces, which may come with the new core, so as to be adaptable to different types of locks. Most of these tailpieces install by simply tilting it into the cap, while in some cases you may need to remove the cap (push the locking pin down to allow rotation) & place the tailpiece under the cap before re-installing.

I recognize some of the broken parts as resembling the typical tailpiece used in Schlage cylinders generally, but do not recognize others...and wonder if there isn't a tailpiece guide that fastens in the hole (maybe with the circlip?) of the outer housing...

A call to Schlage to ask which specific tailpiece is used with their removable core cylinder to operate the old VD33 would be in order. While I assume the outer cylindrical housing and possible tailpiece guide are VD parts, it is possible that Schlage actually made these to fit exclusively in the VD33.
 
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Old 01-13-11, 10:06 PM
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Thank you for for the explanation of how the tailpiece likely installs; that helps. As you suggest I'll try to inquire with Schlage about which specific tailpiece is used with their removable core cylinder to operate the old VD33. I'm hoping the possible tailpiece guide as you mention will be something that can be referenced as well, if not through Schlage then maybe through the outfit that now controls parts for the old VD33.
 
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Old 01-15-11, 05:20 PM
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Schlage refers me to Von Durpin who refers me to the company that controls old VD33 parts, who says there is no exclusive tailpiece or tailpiece guide for the VD33, and seems to insist that any locksmith should have these proper parts. I'm afraid I'll be spinning my wheels forever until I actually have a locksmith examine the situation in person. Right now though I continue to be mystified as to how this type of tailpiece (such as shown but broken in the picture here) installs into the back end of this type of core and with what apparent tailpiece guide and how this tailpiece guide would install. http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/b...1/IMG_1471.jpg
 
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Old 01-16-11, 12:11 AM
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Originally Posted by rstripe View Post
Not having worked on a Schlage Large Format Removable Core, I don't recall the principle of operation of the core retainer, (Global?) but it could be that that circlip is your plug retainer, that has come off, but the plug is still being retained by the core retaining pin, which allows a tiny bit of in-out play, just enough to mis-align the pin-tumblers.

A lot of theories here, question is, can you pull the key out if you hold the plug in?
Schlage LFIC core removal key is 7 pin usually. The last pin interacts with the end of the plug to allow the retainer to retract
 
  #31  
Old 01-16-11, 02:14 PM
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One can only conclude then, that a Schlage tailpiece, of the type used in a single-cylinder Schlage deadbolt would work....

Assemble the empty housing back onto the trim handle (333NL-TP) and, looking into the core cavity, do you see a slot just on the other side of the hole that the tailpiece would pass thru? Does turning this slot with a screwdriver affect the locking & unlocking of the button? If so, it may be that simple.
 
  #32  
Old 01-16-11, 03:53 PM
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In reviewing the pics you've sent, the last one showing the new core, shows a screw-on knurled cap with a locking pin, which is the standard Schlage method of plug retention, therefore there should be no need for a circlip (commonly used by other companies). But in your earlier pic showing the broken tailpiece parts there IS a circlip..... don't know where that is supposed to go, if not part of the VD cylinder housing...
 
  #33  
Old 01-17-11, 11:52 AM
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Originally Posted by rstripe View Post
One can only conclude then, that a Schlage tailpiece, of the type used in a single-cylinder Schlage deadbolt would work.... Assemble the empty housing back onto the trim handle (333NL-TP) and, looking into the core cavity, do you see a slot just on the other side of the hole that the tailpiece would pass thru? Does turning this slot with a screwdriver affect the locking & unlocking of the button? If so, it may be that simple.
Because I am not there now (and will not be until tomorrow) I cannot actually do, at this time, as you describe. But I do know that with the housing removed from the trim I can look into the open hole and see a cross or plus-shaped part (cam?) that I could turn with a screwdriver if I wanted to, and I'm fairly certain (without being there, as I mentioned) that this does affect the locking and unlocking of the button. But even if that is the case, I am still at a loss as to how, if I had an unbroken tailpiece, the tailpiece installs into the new core.
 
  #34  
Old 01-17-11, 12:35 PM
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Questions, regarding pic as posted in post #11 this thread:

1. If the tailpiece is indeed broken, what exactly is broken about it? Is it the jagged angled end there that might have a little chunk broke off? How does an unbroken tailpiece like this look anyway?

2. In the back end of the old damaged/broken core (still within the housing shown in the pic) the locking pin within the knurled cap was bent over, obviously damaged that way somehow. Could the circlip shown in the picture (which was found loose during the cylinder removal along with the other two metal fragments shown) be what is used along with the locking pin to help retain the plug, and is that where it might have come from? Or is there no such circlip with this type of Schlage large format interchangeable cores?

3. A possible clue as to what the two fragments are or came from is that a machined groove can be seen in each that looks as though the circlip shown could fit. What in the heck are these two fragments, part of an apparent missing/broken tailpiece guide??
 
  #35  
Old 01-17-11, 03:02 PM
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RE: Post #33, should be self-evident, once you have the correct tailpiece, which may consist of 2 parts: the tailpiece itself and possibly a disc-like thing with a slot for the tailpiece to come thru, which is installed under the cap. Remove the cap by holding in the locking pin while unscrewing. (When the cap comes off be careful not to let the pin go flying out across the room, you'll never find it).

When re-installing with tailpiece in place, run the cap up till it's snug against the plug, then back off 2-3 notches & try the key to make sure it turns freely & removes without hanging up.

The Cross Slot you see beyond the back side of the housing would indeed be the locking device whereby the tailpiece could be oriented vertically or horizontally, depending on best operation.
 
  #36  
Old 01-17-11, 03:31 PM
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RE: Post #34, I think the cap is all that's needed to retain the plug, and I don't see where the circlip could be used on the core. That's why I wonder if the circlip isn't part of an intermediary linkage or "secondary tailpiece" held on to the end of the VD housing.

In post #11, I recognize the far right piece as a typical Schlage tailpiece with a broken disc but the other parts are not typical...

I know you talked to the Replacement VD company before, but the specific question to them would be: does the VD housing, designed to accept the Schlage Large Format Interchangeable Core, have it's own tailpeice, or does the core's tailpiece simply protrude thru the hole in the housing and engage the cross-slot?
 
  #37  
Old 01-28-11, 01:59 PM
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Okay, I've finally obtained the replacement cylinder housing with the tailpiece. Here's a picture of it (with the bag of additional parts), alongside the old broken business. Now, I'm definitely going to need some help (please) in understanding exactly the various steps in getting the replacement installed. For one thing, the tailpiece looks rather long...
Thanks in advance.
http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/b...1/IMG_1486.jpg
 
  #38  
Old 01-28-11, 08:42 PM
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The housing tailpiece is intended to be broken off at the appropriate "hash mark" so that it is long enuf to protrude thru the "cross" linkage, without being so long as to interfere with anything beyond it. I usually clamp a large vicegrips on to the tailpiece between the cylinder & next to the desired break-off hash, then use another pair of pliers to bend the remaining tailpiece back & forth till it breaks.

I don't know what the inside of the new housing looks like, but I assume it has a slot or cross that would accept a small tailpiece from the core. Usually when you buy a removable core, one or more tailpieces is included, but it would appear you did not get any. Since there may be several tailpieces avail for the Schlage core, you may need to visit your local smithy, as they usually have a selection on hand.

I doubt the company you obtained the housing from would know the correct part no., but they might.
 
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Old 01-29-11, 10:16 AM
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I tried to take a picture here of the inside of the cylinder. Does it look as if the inside pawl or whatever you call it of the tailpiece assembly should just engage into that end of the core when the core is installed? Or do I need some other do-hicky now to make that happen? http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/b...1/IMG_1493.jpg
 
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Old 01-29-11, 02:21 PM
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Never mind my last post. I gave it a shot, and with that core and the tailpiece it works as it should together, without further do-hickys. Success at last! Thanks for all the help on this one.
 
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