Whitco MK II cylinder and Doric

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  #1  
Old 12-20-11, 07:32 AM
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Whitco MK II cylinder and Doric

Hello,

I have a Whitco MK II lock for a screen door and a Doric lock for a sliding door. Both use the same cylinder at the moment. (A "Norton" C4 cylinder with a lazy cam and keys on both sides).

I'm looking to replace the cylinders with "Austral" AA double cylinders since I need to change the locks. (The store that I get the cylinder from doesn't seem to stock "Norton" cylinders anymore). With that said, are Austral a good brand? How do they compare to Norton?

My question is that will the Austral AA double cylinders work with the Whitco MK II and the Doric locks? I've asked the place I'm purchasing from and they said it would, but I'd like to double check. The brochure of the Austral cylinder is here: http://www.ausloc.com/catalogue/prod..._cylinder/cp19

Also, it's been a while since I changed the cylinders and I can't exactly remember how I did it. But if I recall correctly, at least for the Whito MK II locks, all I did was unscrew one screw from the side of the lock (that is, I didn't unscrew any of the screws on the face of the inside lock) and then the cylinder just slid out after I turned the key and then I just slid the new cylinder in and put the screw back in.

So my second question is whether this is actually the case for the release of the lock? That is, would I all need to do is to unscrew the screw on the side of the lock (the middle one, if I recall correctly) and then just insert the key and slide the cylinder out and put the new cylinder in, etc? Would this also be the case for the Doric lock?

I apologise if these are very simple questions but I'd like to be extra sure.

Perhaps this would be a question for GlobalLocky? He/she seems quite knowledgeable with these kind of locks.

Thanks heaps in advanced!

EDIT: Also, the reason that I look so paranoid is that the two following threads somewhat concern me:

http://www.doityourself.com/forum/re...ged-stuck.html

http://www.doityourself.com/forum/re...-key-lock.html

Although it seems to be a relatively simple task it could result in something unfortunate :\

What's more concerning to me is that a solution to those problems in those two threads hadn't been found without replacing the entire lock... Would anyone know what possibly could've gone wrong in those two threads? (Just so I could know if those problems happen to me...)

Thanks again
 

Last edited by minifhncc; 12-20-11 at 08:03 AM.
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  #2  
Old 12-22-11, 10:07 PM
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The Doric is a direct copy of the old Whitco MK1. It is noticeable by having a regular type latch. The MK11 has a small bolt above or below the latch, which is a different latch to the Doric. It is beveled on both sides.

The cylinders withdraw in the same way. You need to pull the edge screw out, use the key to lock the lock (open door) to withdraw the cylinder. DO NOT unlock the lock with the cylinder out otherwise you will have a hard time getting the new cylinder in and working. The cylinder must go in one way. It cannot work backwards. Always test with the door open.

In my opinion, the Austral cylinders are okay but generally they are not pin tumbler locks but wafer (disc) tumblers. This makes them far easier to pick open but harder to bump. I would personally stick with a Whitco security door cylinder. They are well made and last forever. The only cost about AUD$25.00.
 
  #3  
Old 12-22-11, 10:11 PM
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The Doric lock on your sliding door may not take the original Whitco cylinder because it may protrude too far and could hit the frame. For this reason you can use the Austral cylinder but I would recommend using a whitco wafer (disc) tumbler one for the same reasons. I believe the Austral's protrude almost as far as the Whitco pin tumblers.
 
  #4  
Old 12-22-11, 10:15 PM
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Hi,

Thanks so much for your reply. However I have one question...

Originally Posted by GlobalLocky View Post
In my opinion, the Austral cylinders are okay but generally they are not pin tumbler locks but wafer (disc) tumblers. This makes them far easier to pick open but harder to bump.
Sorry to ask, but what do you mean by this?

The doors originally had wafer locks, but I replaced them with Norton C4 cylinders (5 pin) and now I'm looking at replacing them with Austral C4 cylinders (again 5 pin).

Are you saying that the wafer locks are more secure?

Sorry if I didn't understand correctly and thanks again!

Btw, what is the difference between Norton and Austral in general and in terms of the two seemingly identical products (in this case the lazy cam euro 5 pin C4 cylinders).

Thanks again!
 
  #5  
Old 12-22-11, 10:19 PM
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Also, if you don't mind also answering... why are wafer locks more secure?

I've seen one of my family members being able to pick one with a paper clip... but they wernt able to do so with the C4 5/6 pin cylinders by just using a paper clip (although it is possible through other ways obviously).

Thanks again!
 
  #6  
Old 12-23-11, 03:44 AM
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Hello again,

One last question if you don't mind...

Originally Posted by GlobalLocky View Post
DO NOT unlock the lock with the cylinder out otherwise you will have a hard time getting the new cylinder in and working.
Just for my own reference, what would one do if they accidentally unlock the lock whilst the cylinder is out?

Thanks again
 
  #7  
Old 12-23-11, 09:04 AM
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Austral cylinders are all wafer (disc) tumbler from memory. They are designed to work on the C4 keyway. they cannot be master keyed (conventionally) and are significantly easier to pick but almost impossible to bump. Search for lock bumping on Youtube for an explanation about lock bumping.

Norton are a copycat manufacturer of the original Whitco security door cylinder. They are made in Taiwan, I think and branded with a Norton logo. There are multiple other brands that also buy from the same factory and each are identical with just a different brand name embossed. Norton also have other cylinders in their range that are also carbon copies of mainstream brands.

Whitco original wafer tumbler cylinders for security doors are significantly harder to pick than the C4 wafer tumbler cylinders. They are double sided keys that have different cuts (depths) on each side. This directly makes the cylinders much harder to pick.

If you were to unlock the lock when it is open after withdrawing the cylinder, two things can happen.

1. the internal mechanism can fall out of it's correct positioning, making the lock inoperable correctly.
2. If the cylinder is put back in when the lock is unlocked, it potentially could misalign the locking mechanism and jam up, making unlocking a drill job (even when the door is open).
 
  #8  
Old 12-25-11, 10:48 AM
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The general concensus among locksmiths in Australia is for a dislike of the quality of Austral made cylinders.

One colleague in Australia is a reputable former teacher/instructor with close to 50 years experience. He says,

"The Austral cylinders I know ARE wafer and use a C4 profile that is about 5mm shorter in height than a standard 4. You can key a standard pin tumbler cylinder to an Austral key, but not an Austral cylinder to a standard 4 key.

As everyone says, ditch the Austral...."

The LOK4 cylinders are available from select locksmiths in Australia and are much better quality and surprisingly competitively priced
 
  #9  
Old 12-27-11, 03:02 AM
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GlobalLucky, you should clear your PM box because it is full. I can't reply to you...

Anyway just wanted to say:

Thanks for the list.

I usually buy my stuff from Eastern Suburbs. I wonder why they never mentioned anything about LOK4 and sold me Norton cylinders. I shall ask them.

May I ask though, are the pins for the LOK4 same as the ones used in most C4 cylinders?

Thanks again for that!

Also, could you please PM me about the question I asked in regards to the J series? Probably wise not to post about it here. I'm considering how difficult it is for one to get copies for those and considering to change to Binary Plus or Bilock (or Abloy too if the price is right) if it is too easy... and plus I think the price to get them cut is ridiculous if it can be done cheaper elsewhere...
 
  #10  
Old 12-28-11, 05:01 AM
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PM'ed you about 6 hours ago. LOK4 has only been on the market a bit less than a year. Security door cylinder prices from dealer to dealer (competition) but the manufacturers recommended retail price is AUD$30.00.

I already answered the J series question in the previous PM.

As to costs, you must remember that paying peanuts will get you monkeys. Quality products and services are not cheap. If you want to go the cheap way, I suggest you hit the big box.

Locksmiths (usually - at least in Australia) have deliberately trained to offer premium products and services. Accordingly, prices will be more expensive than most DIY stores. Experience and knowledge are the items you pay for from qualified tradespeople and usually their guarantee is stronger than the ones offered at big boxes.

Do you try to get your medical or legal services at cheaper prices too? Doctors and lawyers are reknowned for massive overcharging, yet most people dont seem to think they should pay less. I believe the value of your lock and key for your property should be a representation of how much you value your security, safety and peace of mind that you expect for your family. Many people will spend $500,000 + on their properties and lock the door with a $10 dollar lock, expecting it to be of good quality and to last. Many people spend significant sums on shoes and clothes and jewellery but refuse to secure those items at their properties with quality hardware that costs more than $10. Why is that?
 
  #11  
Old 12-28-11, 05:06 AM
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Originally Posted by GlobalLocky View Post
PM'ed you about 6 hours ago.
I don't think I got it and I don't think I got the J series reply either (only about the different series, but not the question I asked after).

And yeah I get that about the security. But what's the point in paying $20 for copies when I could get them cheaper, and it doesn't offers the protection that I thought it was supposed to.

By the way, we have bulk billing here for doctor visits so I haven't paid much for doctors. But still I do get your point. I guess it's just the mindset of people...
 
  #12  
Old 01-01-12, 02:02 PM
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Changing the mindset of people is difficult due to the quantity of information that can and does lead many astray. Whom does one believe? Who says it like it is? This is the primary reason I always advise my customers to get at least 3 quotes/opinions from different companies for anything.

Many choose to accept my opinion and choose me to provide their services. This is gratifying and certainly helps me build a continuing business but sometimes i prefer to win jobs when people compare my offerings to others.

Let me just reiterate, that often today, the mindset seems to be about purchasing the cheaper quality product while hoping that it stands up to the test of time. This is a proven fantasy. If you want to pay peanuts, expect to get monkeys.

When you consider the raw wholesale cost of the keyblanks like JA, JB, JC, JD, JL or even JM (around $1.50+ each) to the raw wholesale cost of standard non-registered or protected keyblanks like C4, C1, C111, C270 (Australian keyblank numbers - around $0.40 each) then you add the cost of the specialised machinery required to produce correct keys and the time taken to actually create the key, you begin to understand why some companies charge the higher prices they do. When you also consider the amount of training that professionals take to become proficient in their respective professions, just like doctors or lawyers etc, suitable compensation for supplying goods and services bears a cost designed to maintain and continue a business forced to survive.
 
  #13  
Old 01-01-12, 04:58 PM
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Yeah I get that.

But to get keys cut by code, some places here charge like $20, some charge $7.50. Whereas normal key cutting costs around $5. That's a big difference if you ask me. I wouldn't think of it much if it was just a few dollars.

When you consider the raw wholesale cost of the keyblanks like JA, JB, JC, JD, JL or even JM (around $1.50+ each)
Is that even the case for the ones produced by overseas manufacturers?

Thanks
 
  #14  
Old 01-02-12, 10:33 AM
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The cost for code cutting machinery is significantly higher than for duplicating machinery. Combined with the extra time required to produce a code cut key, the cost will always be significantly higher than duplication.

Most locksmiths only make the registered/restricted keys on a code machine because this will always produce a key to manufacturers specifications and always be an original.

Many key cutters (not locksmiths) rarely adjust their duplicating machines regularly and to cut perfect duplicates, the machines need to be serviced and adjusted regularly. The instances of poorly cut duplicates happens far too frequently when not done by a locksmith.

I guess it could be compared to having your car serviced by the car dealer instead of by Lube Express or similar "fast food" type businesses. I am not saying that they dont do a reasonable job, but they often employ less experienced technicians than the dealers do. Again the phrase "pay peanuts, get monkeys" applies. Most keyblanks in Australia are produced overseas. I used to work for Edmonds keys in Braeside, Victoria where they actually produced/manufactured many common keyblanks for the Australian market inhouse. I believe they still manufacture some keys there, but many other distributors get their stocks from overseas suppliers who can often produce and deliver cheaper from abroad than can be produced locally.

Dont forget that many local distributors are working with very small margins also.

I believe there is an Italian manufacturer called CEA that are producing some of the copied J series keyways. CEA is a copycat manufacturer of the well known Silca brand.
 
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