deadbolt and entry latch combined?

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  #1  
Old 01-11-14, 11:48 AM
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deadbolt and entry latch combined?

The front door of my parentsí house originally had just a door knob lock with a small latch. In the Ď70s, they upgraded to a vertical deadbolt: a Super Guard Lock II made by Ideal Security Hardware. This lock used the original door knob hole, so installation wasnít too hard. Well, the lock is having some problems these days, mainly because the two deadbolt parts arenít fully popping up anymore. Iím told that the lock canít be fixed and itís not made anymore. Do you know of a similar lock with fairly easy DIY installation? I found a post from a few years ago with a similar question and the major recommendations were for a Weiserbolt (which was already discontinued back then) and a Trilock (which seems to be available only in Australia; weíre in the US). Are there any newer options? Thanks.
 
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Old 01-13-14, 04:51 PM
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but the unique thing about the Ideal Security lock was that it combined the ease of installation into a standard door knob hole with the security of a vertical deadbolt (jimmy-proof) design AND an automatic latching function, AND possibly a hold-open setting.

As far as I know there is no replacement that would not require additional hole(s) drilled into the door.
 
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Old 01-13-14, 04:59 PM
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By the way, if you happen to come across a used Weiserbolt on Ebay or whatever, I would avoid it...unless they came out with a lever function that I wasn't aware of, the knob function did not work very well ergonomically.
Probably why it was discontinued shortly after it's introduction.
 
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Old 01-15-14, 06:54 AM
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rstripe: Yes, everything you said about the Ideal Security lock was what made it appealing. If we have to drill another hole, do you have an opinion about what lock would require the least modification to the door and the frame? It seemed like the Trilock wouldn't be too bad to install, but we'd need something from the US. Thanks for the info.
 
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Old 01-15-14, 06:56 PM
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Our local Australian expert, GlobalLocky, might chime in here regarding the Trilock, but for the function you're wanting, I think even the Trilock requires an additional hole above the standard Cylindrical prep hole. But he would know.

Generally, you will have the most selections in cost, finishes, & security with the standard "cylindrical" (sometimes called "Tubular") deadbolt designs. These require a secondary hole in the door of similar proportion to the primary latch lock hole, ie:, 2-1/8" crossbore diameter hole (some designs need only 1-3/4") centered at 2-3/8" backset from door edge, and a 7/8" or 1" diameter edge bore for the bolt.

If you replace the Ideal Security lock in the primary hole with an inexpensive passage set (no locking function) you will not experience accidental lock-outs.

You can get a cheap hole-saw kit designed for "occasional" use or, if you've got more time than money, a spade bit for the edge bore & a series of twist-bit holes for the crossbore will do in a pinch. You'll need a wood chisel to mortise in the bolt on door's edge. (I would not recommend a "drive-in" bolt).
 
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Old 01-23-14, 12:42 PM
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I installed 3 of the Ideal Security Super Guard Lock II's in the late 70's. I've been keeping them going with some spare parts I bought from the locksmith years ago, when the stopped making them. Recently, one broke and I don't have that part.

I have discovered that the Prime-Line Segal Slam Lock has many of the capabilities of the SGLII. The most important for me, is that you can close the door and lock it WITHOUT a key on the outside. It is not designed to install in the original door knob hole, but it is similar enough, that I think I can make it work that way. The only problem I see is that the Segal rim cylinder is a larger diameter than the Ideal cylinder. If you are willing to use the Ideal cylinder, installation should be fairly simple. It may be possible to enlarge the hole in the SGLII outside handle to make the segal cylinder fit, or possibly fabricate some other handle.


If that doesn't work out, I'll put a door knob in the original hole and install the slam lock above it.

I'm planning on purchasing 3 slam locks in the next few days. I'll let you know how the installation goes.
 
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Old 01-24-14, 06:56 AM
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GilliganFL: This sounds good. Let us know how it goes. Thx.
 
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Old 01-28-14, 02:05 PM
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the combination deadbolting latch products are prone to fault these days, hence why no one makes them anymore. The Trilock in Oz will do what you want and the cylinder is inline with the cross bore hole while the handle doesnt have a separate spindle hole. The Gainsborough Trilock is a good looking and functional product, quite expensive.

The primary installation issue is the depth of the strike hole. You need at least 1&/3/4" depth into your jamb. Most door frames (jambs) are 1" thick.
 
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Old 02-03-14, 06:56 PM
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In ref. to the Segal Slam Lock:

This as another one of those great design ideas that, when mass-produced in China, falls short of it's great potential.

First, realize that (no matter where it's made) it will only work on in-swing doors, so it's primarily a residential lock.

Second, The manufacturing tolerances of the key cylinder & tumblers render it very easy to pick/bump/manipulate, even compared to other China-made locks.
Substituting a higher-quality cylinder will greatly improve security.

Third, The supplied strike plate screws are only 1" long, which will only fasten to the door frame & not to the wall stud. Substituting longer screws is only an improvement if the screws are angled back so as to engage the stud.

Fourth, The strike plate appears to be made of a bronze casting. For the 3 narrow "hooks" to have good strength, the casting must be of sufficient quality to not have significant internal voids, which, of course, can't be seen on the outside. This quality may be there, I just don't know.

If you improve on the second and third items above, this should be a very stout lock, and like other "jimmy-proof" designs, will be quite resistant to "jamb-spreading" attempts.
 
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Old 02-14-14, 07:59 PM
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Slam Lock installed successfully!

I have successfully installed a Segal Slam Lock where I had originally had an Ideal Security Super Guard Lock II. It wasn't too difficult, but there were a few minor issues.

If anyone is interested, I can post the details after I install two more on my other doors.

Gilligan
 
  #11  
Old 02-15-14, 12:01 PM
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Good! Did you use the flat strike or the angle strike? Did you have to mortise out much to install it? Let us know after you get the others on.
 
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Old 02-16-14, 01:54 PM
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Installation details

I used the angle strike plate with three inch screws.

On one door, I needed to increase the mortise depth a bit, another door no change was needed. I also needed to add a shim on one door, to move the strike plate out from the wall. The hooks would not quite catch. The Ideal lock was a bit unusual in that it could be adjusted up, down, left and right, by just loosing the screws. The Segal lock is fixed once screwed to the door.

Minor Issues:

1) Aesthetics: The Segal deadbolt is a bit smaller than the Ideal deadbolt. Thus, the outline of the old Ideal will be partly visible, "A" in the photo. The "B" feature was under the original door knob cover plate. The "C" feature is the edge of the Ideal lock cylinder retaining plate. This can be filed down a bit, if this bothers you. "D" is a mounting hole for "C". I cut off the mounting tab that had the hole. To fix "A", "B" and "D", you will have to refinish the door.

2) Handle: As the Segal deadbolt was not designed to replace the usual door knob, there is no handle to pull open the door. I just turn the lock knob and pull it. If your door sticks or you have small children, the lock knob may not have sufficient leverage to open the door. I added the brass grab bar to the top two screws. It is 1/16" x 1" x 2.5". K & S Precision Metals makes 1/16" x 1" x 12" brass and is available at well stocked hardware or hobby stores.

3) Smaller Strike Plate: The Segal angle strike plate is slightly smaller than the Ideal one, and the holes are in different locations. This will leave a gap around the mortise, which I filled with caulk. The old screw holes need to be filled before drilling new ones. I used golf tees covered with epoxy. (A tip from a home improvement book) I used Insignia Enviro-Friendly 2-Piece Golf Tees. These don't get fatter near the head and can fill 2 3/4 inch deep hole. Re-drill the holes to be filled to 3/16 in diameter, otherwise, you may not be able to pound the tee all the way in.

4) Longer Screws: When I made the top two and bottom two screws of the strike plate longer, they interfere with each other if screwed straight in. I angled the screws on the hook surface toward the center of the strike plate. The top screws on the other surface were angled out. When you examine the angled strike plate, it may seem better to angle the screws the other way, as you can angle them less to avoid interference. This is not great, as the screw head will now interfere with the latch hook. You will need to file out the screw hole in the strike plate to oval in the direction of the angle of that screw. This will prevent the flat head screw from sticking out more than a little bit.

When pre-drilling the angled screw holes, take care to NOT drill the hole centered in the oval, but rather nearer the filed out direction of the oval. I messed up the first few holes I drilled and the strike plate moved when the tapered screw head aligned itself with the recessed hole in the strike plate.

5) Lock Cylinder: The Segal lock cylinder doesn't quite fit in lock hole in the Ideal door handle. One of the four mounting bolt holes protrudes slightly in to the hole. File this with a half round file.

6) Cylinder Retaining Plate: I initially tried to use just the Segal lock cylinder retaining plate, but it did not completely cover the original door knob hole, and bent when tightening the screws. Unfortunately, the bolt holes in the Ideal plate, for the Ideal door handle, are larger than the head of the screws supplied! So, I drilled four holes in the Segal plate and put that on top of the Ideal plate. See second photo. You will have to cut the four Ideal handle mounting screws a bit shorter. You may also need to notch out the Ideal plate for the Segal mounting screws. (not done yet in photo) Finally, the mounting holes near the middle of the Segal lock, are quite near the large original door knob hole. It is best to angle these screws away from lock opening knob. One hole I drilled on the first door, went into this big hole. You can also see the golf tees glued in the original strike plate mounting holes.

7) Weather Stripping: There is a bit bounce back after the lock bar catches the strike plate hooks. My weather stripping lost is springiness long ago. You may have to replace the weather stripping.
 
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Old 02-16-14, 06:46 PM
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Addendum to 6) about angling the Segal mounting screws.
Use the template that comes with the lock to mark the two mounting holes near the door edge and drill them. Next, attach the lock to the door with these two screws. Finally, drill the other two screw holes at the appropriate angle and insert them.
 
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Old 02-17-14, 04:54 PM
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Bravo! Looks well done...These tips will come in handy for others to make a similar transition. Thank you!
 
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Old 02-18-14, 01:16 PM
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This is great, GilliganFL. When the weather warms up, I want to replace my Ideal lock with the Segal Slam Lock. To make the replacement as easy as possible, Iím thinking of keeping the Idealís outside door handle, cylinder, and retaining plate, and just using the Segalís lock and strike. I downloaded the Segal installation instructions and it seems like the tailpiece of the Ideal cylinder would be in the right location to fit the Segal lock. Is that right? The Idealís backset is 2-3/8ď. Do you think there would be any problem getting the tailpiece of the Ideal cylinder to work with the Segal lock?

I donít have to use the Segal retaining plate, do I? The Segal plate seems to be about the same height and width as the Segal lock, whereas the Ideal plate is just a bit bigger than the original doorknob hole. Does the bigger Segal plate serve any important purpose? (You did report that the bolt holes in the Ideal plate are bigger than the door handleís bolt heads, so I guess Iíd have to get new bolts with bigger heads.)

I like that the Slam Lock lets you lock the door without the key, but I noticed that Segal has another jimmy-proof lock with the two vertical bolts, like the Ideal has, and its dimensions seem to be about the same as the Idealís. If I got that Segal, I wonder if I could use the Idealís angle strike and make installation even easier for myself -- though we'd have to use the key every time we went out. (I noticed too that a lock like the Yale 197 also has the vertical deadbolt, but I donít know if it could replace the Ideal as well as GilliganFL showed the Segal would.)
 
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Old 03-11-14, 09:06 AM
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Follow up to Installation Details

nugmebot: The centering of the tailpiece is slightly different, about 1/16 to 1/8 inch higher for the Segal. This is within the tailpiece tolerance of most locks. The length of the tail piece is possibly an issue. The ideal works with 3/8 - 5/8 in from the back of the door, while the Segal needs a minimum of 1/2 in. If the Ideal one is too short, replacing the tail piece is not too hard. The tailpiece from the Segal cylinder may even work, if you lucky.

If you use just the Ideal retaining plate, you will need washers or larger heads for the handle screws, as the holes are larger than the screw heads. Other than holding the screw heads, the Segal retaining plate does minimize slop in positioning the lock. Without it, the lock will move at least a quarter of an inch, in all directions before you screw it down. I don't think this is much of an issue, other than finding the screw holes.

A few more issues

I changed the opening handle to a knob. This allows the door to be opened with one hand, which obviously, can be handy. Also, a friend was over and tried to open the door. He didn't see the brass handle, and was having difficulty opening the door with the small Segal twist knob. I used the knob from the original knob set I had removed 30 odd years ago. The top of the Segal knob is soft brass and easy to Drill a hole in. I filed some grooves in the end of the knob for the epoxy to grab. The length of knob end was nearly as long as the Segal knob and was nearly as large as the small end of the Segal knob. Fortunately, it had some notches at the end to grab the opening mechanism, thus allowing the epoxy to flow into the Segal knob. Unfortunately, there was a plastic inner locking part with out notches. Also, it was too long, so I cut it off and added notches. Finally, there was a hole going into the main knob. I blocked this hole with a rolled up piece of paper towel. You would waste a lot of epoxy if it went into the large knob! As there is not enough room to try to push pasty epoxy in the hole, you will need LIQUID epoxy, not pasty stuff.

The strike plate hooks can grab loose clothing. I added the brass bar to block this.

Finally, the strike plate hooks have sharp edges and stick out about a quarter inch past the lock, with the door closed. A friend was reaching for the knob and hit the hooks, instead. I filed these sharp edges off.
 
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Old 03-12-14, 06:59 PM
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Keep Closed Mechanism:

The original Ideal lock had spring loaded ball that replaced the normal door knob bolt. This keep the door closed when lock was set NOT to lock when closed. Great to go get the mail and not need to use the key to get back in. If you have one of these, you realize that this mechanism brakes in a few years, when the aluminum ball retainer wears out. Any half wit engineer will realize that having aluminum part and a steel part rub against each other, daily, will cause the much softer aluminum part wear out rather quickly. In my case, this failed about thirty years. It is not usually a problem, unless there is a stiff breeze, when the door will blow open without the Keep Closed Mechanism.

I thought I'd try to improvise something. I started with the standard door knob bolt and filed an angle on the opposite side. I also bent the strike plate to about the same angle as the filed bolt. This can be seen in the two photos. Now, when the door is closed and not locked, the spring action of the bolt keeps the door closed. The door will open with a slight push or pull, with the new angled edge of the bolt sliding up the ramp of the strike plate. I needed to use a stronger spring, as the original one was rather weak.

The third photo shows some details. I removed most of the parts that came with the door bolt, those shown are what are left. I had to modify some parts and add two parts to replace those I tossed. I made the two white half circle parts seen in the back of the cylinder. The bottom one has a notch to allow clearance for the spring. These are made from 1/2 in PVC pipe. The outside diameter was too large, so I had to file them down a bit. I put a wooden dowel in the center of the spring, to keep it from bending and ribbing on the other parts.

The original parts added an inch and a half to the length of the door bolt assembly. You may be able to reuse most of those parts if you drill a deeper hole in the door for clearance. In my case, these were held together by bent over metal tabs. These easily break after bending them a couple of times.

I actually installed the Keep Closed Mechanism before I added the regular door knob. The extra force of the bolt spring made using the small Segal knob difficult.
 
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Old 03-19-14, 08:35 AM
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Thanks, GilliganFL. Really helpful.
 
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Old 03-23-14, 02:25 PM
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here is a pic of the Yale No 1 Deadlatch. It is an automatic dedlatch that is rim mounted and effectively does what Gilligan did, but is a pre-made product.

http://cdn3.volusion.com/bwbt5.h6xh7...jpg?1348729105

In Australia, the most popular deadlock product for the last 40 years in the Lockwood 001.

see the video... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AqzTUzZP2VY

The Yale No 1 is available in the USA I think and the Lockwood is available from 1 or 2 suppliers, but it is very expensive (because it is such good quality)
 
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