old doorknob loose

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Old 05-22-18, 04:45 PM
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old doorknob loose

This old "classroom" type door knob came loose somehow and doesn't want to just simply push or screw back into position. I'm not savvy on these doorknobs but I suppose I might need to stick a paperclip in that small hole and see if I can get the one side of the knob removed and take it apart to some extent and/or try to access whatever seems to be holding it out like that and mess with it somehow but I don't want to make it turn into more trouble than it already is. Included a few photos below of each side of the door knob. Any advice/guidance appreciated.



 
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Old 05-22-18, 04:51 PM
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Insert a pin through the hole to pull the round knob off, (do this on the lock side) then the escucheon (rose) will pop off so you can get to the screws to tighten them.
 
  #3  
Old 05-22-18, 08:45 PM
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Looks like an old Russwin or Corbin. There's a little trick to these. They don't use tie screws. They secure to the door by using a spanner wrench to tighten the inside collar AFTER the outside collar has been adjusted to the door thickness. Sometimes the outer collar becomes loose, then simply tightening the inside collar won't work because it doesn't center the latch retractor properly.

If the locks' condition is just like your photo, start by pulling (don't turn) the inside knob to take up the slack in the outer rose, so it's up against the door in it's "normal" position. Now tighten the inside collar (there's a rubber O ring embedded in the threads, so there will be some resistance) until it snugs the inner rose to the door. You may test the lock now for normal operation, but if it binds, you'll need to adjust the outer collar. This is easily done with the lock removed: With the inner knob at it's rest position, a long straightened-out large paper clip (or similar) is inserted into the knob hole at the 9:00 or 3:00 o'clock position, to depress the retainer. This retainer is only accessible after the inner rose has been screwed a certain distance onto the spindle, and that's why the lock has to be pulled up against the outer rose.

Once removed, the outer rose can be positioned such that, by holding the lock up to the door's edge, you can estimate the door centerline with the latch retractor. Then make sure the outer rose clicks into place (there should be a coil spring under the rose) in one of the notches on the spindle. Now when you re-assemble, tightening the inside collar will snug the lock into proper position. Without the proper spanner wrench, you can final- tighten with curved-jaw channel-lock pliers with a rag around the collar to protect the finish.
 
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Old 05-22-18, 08:57 PM
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Just to clarify, the inner rose just floats around the spindle when loose; The COLLAR is threaded onto the spindle and it's flange nests into the rose for a secure fitting. Make sure the flange nests onto the rose as you tighten the collar, or it will come loose again.
 
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Old 05-22-18, 09:23 PM
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Incidentally, further scrutiny of your photos shows both roses to have a "dished-in" look.
I don't think this is normal....there should be a reinforcing steel rose that nests under the outer decorative rose to give it strength when the collar is tightened. The reinforcing rose is dished such that it prevents the decorative rose from "caving in" when tightened, as appears in the photo. Either these reinforcements are missing or they have been installed backwards.

While these locks are persnikity to install correctly, they were some of the best commercial locks ever made...last forever if properly maintained. Would cost a fortune to make them today, as a lot of solid bronze and machining went into these.
 
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Old 05-22-18, 09:26 PM
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I think that was a style from the 70s.
 
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Old 05-22-18, 09:31 PM
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Yep the place was built in the 70's.
Thanks for the replies I'll be able to tinker with it tomorrow, with the comments/instructions so far and will keep ya'll posted. Wish me luck; I'll need it.
 
  #8  
Old 05-23-18, 01:54 PM
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Here's more food for thought...been a long time since I've fooled with these (ThisOldMan or GlobalLockey might chime in here with advice), but if the long paper clip doesn't depress a retainer, the other method Russwin and Corbin used on their Grade 1 locks was to unscrew the inner collar all the way so you could pull the inner rose back away from the door then you can insert a long skinny flat-blade screwdriver behind it and into the door cavity to push the knob retainer, then the knob and inner spindle comes out as a unit. It's hard to describe the shape of the retainer, but it's a "C" shaped clip that encircles the spindle body, only one side is visible, but with some trial and error poking you'll get it. To reassemble, just push the knob back on and turn it one way or the other, and it will click back into place. I always put a dab of grease on the shaft before reinserting.
 
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Old 05-23-18, 06:17 PM
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IIRC, that is a newer style than what rstripe talks about in Post #8. Those were some extremely well made locksets. Checking the latch face on the edge of the door should give a brand: Corbin, Russwin or Emhart. They are all the same thing, Emhart owned Corbin and Russwin

The hole in the knob (at 3 or 9 o'clock) would most likely be for a knob retainer. I liked to use the long-arm of an appropriately sized allen wrench; stiffer and straighter than a paper-clip. Small wrenches on a folding allen set will often do the job. Try to remove the inside knob.

The hole in the collar is for the tip of a wrench used to tighten/loosen the collar or thimble. (https://www.craftmasterhardware.com/...thimble-wrench).
 
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Old 05-24-18, 12:30 PM
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start by pulling (don't turn) the inside knob to take up the slack in the outer rose, so it's up against the door in it's "normal" position.
rstripe: (quote above as from your initial reply here this thread...)
When I try to pull on the inside knob to try to take up slack on the outer rose, it doesn't pull; there is apparently something preventing it from pulling it that way in order to get the outer rose into it's "normal" position. Please advise/comment. thanks

edit: Disregard my above comment as I did somehow manage to at least get the outer rose up against the door into its normal position.
 

Last edited by sgull; 05-24-18 at 12:58 PM. Reason: got outer rose into its normal position
  #11  
Old 05-24-18, 02:02 PM
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Now tighten the inside collar (there's a rubber O ring embedded in the threads, so there will be some resistance) until it snugs the inner rose to the door.
After managing to get the outer rose flush into its normal position on its side of the door I began turning to tighten (with channel-lock pliers) what I assume is being referred to as the "collar" on the inner side and it did indeed help to snug the outer rose to the door but then the knob on the inner side ended up being in the situation/position as shown in the photo below, and obviously that's not right, and plus when I try to turn either knob either way the latch doesn't move... And, I noticed on the latch plate on the edge of the door it says neither Corwin nor Russwin but Schlage.

Also, I think I may be unclear on which side of the door is being considered/described as the "inner" and "outer" I would think the inner is the side with the lock button you can press in and turn with your fingers?

Any further comments/advice appreciated. Thank you

 
  #12  
Old 05-24-18, 07:06 PM
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OK, Schlage's D Series are easier to deal with, and do not use the inner C clip to release the knob...they strictly use the hole in the knob. Inasmuch as you've got it tightened up and it binds, it's because the retractor is not centered on the latch tang. Pop the knob off, unscrew the collar, slip the rose off, and pull the lock out from the key side. There should be a spring pushing the outer rose against the collar, so pull the rose in against the spring so you can screw the collar (outer, key side) several turns in toward the lock body, then let go the rose and continue turning collar until the rose locks into a notch on the collar. Hold the lock (inner knob & rose still removed) up against the edge of the door with the outer rose against the door so you can gauge the center of the retractor jaws with the center of the door thickness. After you've adjusted the outer rose so the latch centerline reasonably matches the retractor centerline, re-insert lock, making sure the 2 guide "ears" on the latch tube engage the slots on the lock body, and the latch tang ("T" shaped bar connected to latch) slide in behind the retractor jaws. You may have to push in on the latch a bit to allow engagement.

It appears you have a much longer than normal backset, ie., distance from door edge to lock centertline ....this requires latch extension tubes which can be troublesome, as they don't always fit well, but also means other brands of latches can sometimes be made to fit them, so it's still possible that although the latch says "Schlage", the lock body could still be Corbin/Russwin/Emhart. The "Ball" design knobs back in the day all kinda look the same.
 
  #13  
Old 05-24-18, 07:15 PM
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And yes, a long skinny Allen wrench works better than a paper clip, thanks ThisOldMan.
 
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Old 05-25-18, 11:03 AM
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Ok rstripe I was able to follow the instructions in your last post here, and had success. The lock is back into position, snug and secure as it should be, and the knobs turn fine and all. Thanks!

I did notice the latch doesn't really pop in and out with a crisp springy back and forth in and out of the latch plate as the knob(s) is turned, seems kinda "sticky". Not sure if it was like that before I messed with it to fix it just now or not. Anyway, maybe a little lock lube of some type or graphite would be worth a try, onto/into the latch? Or could it be some other more involved mechanical issue going on too now?
 
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Old 05-26-18, 04:25 PM
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Oh boy, that could be a number of things, depending on the brand of lock body. At first, the overall view of your photos looked like a Corbin or Russwin, but looking closely at the turn-button, looks more like a Schlage, which conforms to the name on the latch. This can be confirmed by checking that the button can be pushed in to lock the door, (whereupon it will pop out when inner knob or key is turned), but can also be pushed in and turned 90* (whereupon it will maintain the locked condition until manually turned back). The Corbin/Russwin button does not go in/out, it only turns, maintaining the locked state.

Most "D" series Schlages of that era had another feature: If the button was pushed in but not turned, simply closing the door (ie., pushing in on the latch) caused the button to pop out, thereby preventing a lockout. If this is the case on your lock, it means that several interlocking latch tube linkages (because of very long backset) must translate from door's edge to push in on retractor inside the lock body, as this causes the button to pop back out.
 
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Old 05-26-18, 04:42 PM
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On this setup, there's a fair amount of resistance when you push in on the latch because it's working against both the latch spring and the retractor spring, plus any friction in the extensions.

First suspect on "hanging" latch is latch tang to retractor misalignment, as previously described. Because of the lock's age, sluggish action might also be due to thickening of old lube, or no lube at all. A light machine oil should be applied to the lock body's retractor and retractor cams (more easily done with an aerosol-based lube, as the applicator tube can be directed deep into the body). [Do not use WD-40 here; too thin to last long].
Lube the latch itself also.

Even when all is aligned and lubed, sometimes there's a little minor hanging due to the long backset linkages.

As with most things mechanical, checking the smooth operation of each individual component before it's assembled, should, as it's assembled, lead you to discover where the problem is.
 
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Old 05-26-18, 05:22 PM
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Exclamation

Most "D" series Schlages of that era had another feature: If the button was pushed in but not turned, simply closing the door (ie., pushing in on the latch) caused the button to pop out,
On this lock I can push in the button but it doesn't stay in unless it's turned 90 degrees while pushed in. When pushed in and turned, it does indeed provide locking as the outer knob will not turn with the button pushed in. The door is to a small room containing office file cabinets, and the door hasn't been kept locked at all in at least the last 9 years. No one knows where the key is either, so it would be a definite problem if someone were to inadvertently lock it.

Plus, for now, I'm not too keen on the idea of removing again and/or especially of any disassembling to check for smooth operation of each individual component. Maybe some other time...

thanks again
 
  #18  
Old 05-29-18, 03:21 PM
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Having to turn the button 90* to lock it means it's an earlier version, before they went to the "Universal" function, and also means the latch should travel in & out of it's housing very smoothly. At least spray the latch with some lube , it should help. Oh, and no key, and no other door into the room means it's not IF, but WHEN somebody decides to lock the door....might think about taking the lock to a smithy to get a key made....

and thanks for posting, glad to help.
 
 

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