LCN 4114 door closer

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Old 03-31-20, 08:24 PM
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LCN 4114 door closer

The closer in the foreground of the picture is an old bad leaking one that I plan on trying to replace with the identical closer shown in the background. These are LCN model 4114. There is a difference in height of the stem (or whatever it might be called) there that sticks up out of the central area of the top of the closers, to which the arm closer arm attaches. How do I get that stem on that one in the background down and staying on that lower position, like the old one in the foreground, instead of up high like it is?


 
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Old 04-02-20, 10:44 AM
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Is the arm not clearing the door (assuming a standard mounting)? Look at the arm for the new closer. Does is have a larger offset than the old arm?
 
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Old 04-02-20, 11:19 AM
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Is the arm not clearing the door (assuming a standard mounting)? Look at the arm for the new closer. Does is have a larger offset than the old arm?
Well I do not have an arm for the new closer; I just have the closer itself. The old closer arm is standard mounted. Because both the old and new closer are otherwise identical, except for the difference in regard to the stem height as I mentioned and was pictured, I was planning/figuring I should be able to use the old arm with the new closer. But with that new closer the way it is with that stem sticking up like that and turned the wrong way at its apparent default position, I cannot affix the arm onto it that way.
 

Last edited by sgull; 04-02-20 at 11:58 AM.
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Old 04-02-20, 08:43 PM
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One of the better closers ever made, the LCN Smoothie.....I've not seen a pinion shaft shaped like the one in the background......it doesn't even look square, nor does it appear to have a screw hole in the top to fasten the arm to. So it's either a really old model I've not run into, or it's made for a special purpose arm, like for a gate or something.
Hopefully Jess the Door Closer Doctor will see this, she's our expert closer person. That raised shaft almost looks like the type used on a "Floor Check" but I've never seen them used in that capacity. Maybe a very light weight door, I don't know.
 
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Old 04-02-20, 08:54 PM
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I've not seen a pinion shaft shaped like the one in the background......it doesn't even look square, nor does it appear to have a screw hole in the top to fasten the arm to.
The pinion shaft shape of the one in the background is the same as the one in the foreground. Probably just looks different in the photo because it's apparent default position is turned about 90 degrees from the default position of the one in the foreground. There's that difference, plus the other obvious one and that is the raised-up height of it compared to the one in the foreground. Yes hopefully we'll hear from others who may have familiarity/expertise in regard to these type closers. thanks
 
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Old 04-02-20, 08:55 PM
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It just hit me....I think that model (2030 or something like that) was used for Concealed Overhead installations, I think they used a rectangular spindle shaft like that.
 
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Old 04-02-20, 09:05 PM
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Hmmm....well if it's default "parked" position is 90 degrees off, either the latching speed valve is completely closed, or that's another reason to suspect it's for a different mounting arrangement, which I still suspect as a Concealed Overhead type. Don't suppose you know where it came from?
 
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Old 04-02-20, 09:07 PM
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The one in the background, the newer one, has a sticker on it indicating it is model 4114. The one in the foreground is probably a whole lot older but the model sticker is unreadable. I'd been assuming both were identical models, but apparently they are not. They seem very similar, almost identical, in all other respects, except those I've mentioned and shown, as far as I can tell. The shape of the spindle or pinion or whatever it is called, is identical -- rectangular on both, with the short side edges of the rectangle(s) being rounded. The shaft on the one in the foreground does indeed have screw hole on the top that can accept the attachment screw like the other one, after the opening in the arm is fitted/slipped over the shaft (or pinion, or spindle, or stem, or whatever it should be called).
 
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Old 04-02-20, 09:10 PM
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well if it's default "parked" position is 90 degrees off, either the latching speed valve is completely closed, or that's another reason to suspect it's for a different mounting arrangement, which I still suspect as a Concealed Overhead type. Don't suppose you know where it came from?
Don't know where it came from, but I did find the arm for it, and that arm is identical to the arm used for the old one (in the foreground). I'll try to take a few more descriptive photos and post them tomorrow that could help explain...
 
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Old 04-02-20, 09:27 PM
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OK....well so it's not for Concealed Overhead use then, I looked it up and the 4114 is apparently handed only for left or right hand door, so that might explain the 90 degree difference on the "spindle" (I think is the correct terminology) position. The model you have in the foreground may be reversible, and that might explain the spindle height difference, so we'll both learn something when Jess chimes in. (hopefully!)
 
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Old 04-03-20, 06:13 PM
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RH closer will not work for LH door!

Hello all, Hello Sgull

The different angle shaft closers (taller shaft) is used for track installations/concealed in frame, this technically can be set up as a paralell (like the leaker) but it would mess up the bolt hole locations and make closer body be positioned alittle lower being this (leaker) uses parallel rigid arm,

From seeing the bodies of the 2 closers, I am sorry to inform you that the taller shaft closer will not work, it is handed at the factory as a right handed closer (this cannot he changed!) Your closer is a LH (Left hand push side only)

There is a place in Oragon that rebuilds closers ( Universal door controls)

I rebuild them as well but I am sure it would cost an arm and a leg to send your closer to NC.

If you choose to take it apart yourself I will be more then happy to help you replace the leaking O-ring.

Hope this helps,

-Jess
 

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Old 04-03-20, 06:37 PM
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If you choose to take it apart yourself I will be more then happy to help you replace the leaking O-ring.
Then I choose to take it apart myself and take you up on that offer to fix the leaker. thanks!
 
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Old 04-03-20, 08:26 PM
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Well, I was sort of on the right track (pun intended). We usually discourage closer disassembly, but these LCN's are rather costly to replace, and they're basically good closers, and a repair might give another 10 years of service. So, Jess, I'm curious if special tools are needed to take this model apart, or can the spindle O ring be replaced without removing the spring?

As a second question, if too much fluid has been lost, do you have to use special door closer fluid, or can you use plain hydraulic fluid, like brake fluid?

Thanks!
 
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Old 04-03-20, 11:24 PM
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Rstipe,

The tall shaft closer is actually a 4020T. Lol loved the (track) pun! As far as rebuild compared to replace, if it were some cheapo made in china meant for a lightweight door and short warranty period, then REPLACE, but since these LCN closers cost about 400+ new (also depends on arm options too) and handful of other closers that can break the bank if new, then I consider a repair/rebuild may best help the situation, About replacing O-ring without removing spring, when it is just an o-ring I use a method that the spring, piston and pinion stay in the closer and just the pinion not is removed, when I do it, it does involve removing the end plug (round thing on "short end" of closer, usually a 11/16 square hole (used from 1950's until late 70's) or 3/4 inch internal hex, 1980, until 2010) and compressing the spring to relieve any pressure off the pinion nut (makes it easier to remove/put back on and not risk damage to threads on pinion nut or threads down inside closer. As for fluids, I have seen (and used) power steering, ATF, 5w30 motor oil, ISO 22 hydraulic tractor fluid, mineral oil, shock absorber fluid, aviation hydraulic fluid (not skydrol!) all of which is safe for use in a closer when the original fluid is changed or lost during a leak. Now brake fluid...... Bad idea, brake fluid does not do well with nitrile o-rings, I used to work at an auto parts store, brake fluid can be pretty nasty on painted surfaces as well as smell, NOT recommended for use in a closer! As for propriatary door closer fluid, many, many, years ago I think it was LCN and Rixson used to sell cans of the fluid, this ended in about the late 70's to early 80's when many companies stopped producing cast iron potbelly closers, only thing closest to that in today's world is Mullen Circle Brand oils, #9040 is their door check/closer oil. As far as tools, a few of the tools I use on closers I got from Snap-On, 3/4 hex allen socket, that thing is my best friend when working on most LCN 4040 and 4110's. I also use a bar clamp when dealing with rack and pinion type closers to deal with stubborn pinion nuts and safely deal with (strong!) springs. one of the tools I use on potbellies was designed to be a cotter pin remover, works perfect for getting the bottom carrier of spring out of spring chamber on a potbelly. Can't give away all my trade secrets now, Hope this helps!
 
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Old 04-04-20, 11:18 AM
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[QHOTE]As far as tools, a few of the tools I use on closers I got from Snap-On, 3/4 hex allen socket, that thing is my best friend when working on most LCN 4040 and 4110's[/QUOTE]

On my old 4114 closer the hex opening on the end measures 11/16". To attempt to remove the end plug as suggested, and not having an 11/16" hex allen socket, I briefly attempted trying as shown with the vise, vise grips, and a bolt with an 11/16" head. So far have not been able to budge it with this method. Any suggestions? Probably don't want to try heating around the area with a torch, right?


 
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Old 04-04-20, 11:23 AM
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Sgull, it is safe to use heat and/or PBblaster on the end plug, from seeing that style, I will have to say it was probably made in the 80's.

When I was referring to the 11/16, that was the really old style, like that used on potbelly LCN's
 
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Old 04-04-20, 11:31 AM
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from seeing that style, I will have to say it was probably made in the 80's.
There is a date code stamped underneath the spring tube end that says 4 75
 
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Old 04-04-20, 11:38 AM
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Once I do get the end plug unscrewed, what is the method for "compressing the spring to relieve any pressure off the pinion nut" as was described? thanks
 
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Old 04-04-20, 12:00 PM
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The date code is a year off from the one I used to work on at technical school that had the old square shape end plug, '75 is when they started hex style end plugs.

As for compressing the spring, I use a bar clamp longer then the closer and use the adjustable part against the piston, give it few turns to relieve the pressure and then take off the pinion nut, reassembly is reverse order, you may want to put teflon tape on threads of both pinion nut and end plug when reassembling,

Dud you drain the oil out of it first? Dont want to make a mess, also for good measure you may also want to replace the O rings on the 3 speed adjustment valves.

Hope this helps!
 

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Old 04-04-20, 12:30 PM
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Dud you drain the oil out of it first?
No, lol, have yet to drain out the fluid. What is the best method for doing that? Please.

Also, despite using PB Blaster around that end plug and applying a good amount of heat with a torch, my method with the vise grips and bolt is not budging the plug yet. Got the vise grips as tight as I can clamp it on the bolt but when trying to turn it just starts slipping instead of turning out the plug. I think I'll need to somehow acquire a 3/4" hex allen socket. I'm just a little reluctant to apply way too much heat around that end plug.
 
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Old 04-05-20, 01:13 PM
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I'll defer to Jess as the expert on this, but a few ideas, unless you've already tried them. You might give a few days for the penetrant to work, re-applying a few drops every so often. Worked for me when I was restoring an old rusty hay rake using Liquid Wrench many years ago.

I don't have one of those closers to look at, but if that whole piece unscrews, it looks like enough of it sticks out that you can get a pair of Channel Lock pliers on it....now I'm talking at least 14" pliers, the king-size ones, it'll give lots of leverage. Helps if they're fairly new, with sharp teeth.

Then there's the old technique of drifting it with hammer and chisel....I'd want to grind a little ledge with a Dremel tool or similar, to give the chisel something to bite on.

Finally, you might grind the head of the bolt flat, so you don't have the natural chamfered edges, which no doubt, promote the "ramping out" you're experiencing.
 
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Old 04-05-20, 01:20 PM
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Re-reading your post, maybe the Vice Grips are slipping on the bolt shaft.....might try grinding some flats on the bolt shaft, so the Vice Grips don't slip as easy....but even with the "Large" Vice Grips, it might not provide the torque needed.
 
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Old 04-05-20, 01:21 PM
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Update: I tried just about everything and more to get that plug unscrewed you just mentioned in your last two posts rstripe. Finally was able to manage using a 3/4" hex on the end of a tap, the tap inserted into a deep 3/4" socket on an impact wrench. Will post further progress. thanks!

 
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Old 04-05-20, 01:24 PM
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That's quite an arrangement! Good luck!
 
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Old 04-05-20, 01:43 PM
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Good luck!
Thanks I'll need that! But... so far, so good...
 
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Old 04-05-20, 02:34 PM
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Rstripe, The "ramp out" technique you talked about, I have had to do similar with a hammer and chisel on a 4040 from 1980. As for the king size channel lock pliers method, he's tried that as well as clamping the projecting part of end plug in vise and using a bar clamp to rotate the closer. Didn't work. As for the bolt, I have been keeping in touch with Sgull and the bolt broke in 2 from too much force, I have thrown other ideas at him other then those mentioned here and his tap method was what worked the best to get the end plug off the closer.
 

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Old 04-05-20, 05:49 PM
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@sgull, looks like you're in good hands, hopefully all goes well....and maybe you're one of those with extra time on your hands these days, to spend on the project....unfortunately I'm deemed one of those "necessary infrastructure" businesses, so I've got to be careful. Take care!
 
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Old 04-05-20, 06:12 PM
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@rstripe thanks again
 
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Old 04-11-20, 07:33 PM
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Update: Closer repair successful! Should be good for many more years of trouble-free closings. BIG special thanks to Jess the Door Closer Doctor for Jess's guidance obtained on this and the sharing of tips and expertise. A great experience, and looking forward to working on additional closers with what I've learned.
 
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Old 04-11-20, 09:26 PM
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Sgull, I am glad the closer "surgery" was successful and I was able to help you every step of the way to repairing this closer's problems! Stuff like this makes me happy because not only does it keep closers out of the landfill, but costs alot less to repair the problem compared to buying a new one as these handed LCN closers are not cheap! Your welcome, again, anybody with questions or concerns no matter how weird/dumb it may sound about closers (surface, concealed in frame or concealed in the floor) please feel free to ask here.
 
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