seamless gutters. Contraction & expantion


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Old 01-03-04, 07:06 PM
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seamless gutters. Contraction & expantion

My old gutters are nailed through the gutter into the sofit. Long nails.. Every gutter joint which was caulked leaks. Looking into the gutter I see the gutter edge was at a different location & due to contraction & expantion has torn the caulk apart & caused the leak.

Im planning a new copper shingle roof & copper soldered gutters & wondering if the a cradle to hold the gutter is the only way to allow this movement? This would apply to seamless gutters also.

Thanks

Mike
 
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Old 01-03-04, 08:33 PM
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Yes, the cradles are what hold your gutters up. The expansion and contraction in gutters no matter what kind is very minimal. Your old gutters leaked at the seams due to the break down in the seals and also due to the wood holding the nails in got old and loose. Just for your info, your gutter nails are into your fascia and not your soffit. Also, over time gutters rot out. The only ones that do not are vinyl and they have their own problems. Either type you put on will be fine. 15 years is about the life expendency of a metal gutter. Some longer, some not. Good Luck
 
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Old 01-04-04, 08:35 AM
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Thanks!

My terminology may not be up to par yet. I have more experiance with duct work & chiller units.

Copper will last longer than any material. 60years+ I just want to do it right the first time & be done. $6000 for the roof & gutter material. Compared to $1500 for shingles & aluminum gutters.

Dissimilar metals are my only consern now.

Thanks again.

Mike
 
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Old 01-04-04, 10:32 AM
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Lightbulb Gutters

You didnt say what you want to go with here. If its the copper. Now on gutters ,No you nail them on the fascia not in cradles. You also use stays in them not a spike and ferrule. Its like how long is the gutter run going tobe? On most homes we dont put in a expansion joint with the gutter seams that you solder and rivet. Now on big homes or big jobs with a long gutter run yes we put expansion joints. you dont see them cause. One end of the gutter has the end right in it on the end. Now the other gutter in this run has the end soldered in about 2" in the gutter. So you put the first gutter just in the last gutter there, from the ground it just will look like all gutter.

I see "duct work" . You going to make the copper shingle or run a standing seam on the roof? What is 16oz copper going for where you are. ED
 
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Old 01-04-04, 11:23 AM
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Copper gutter of 50' or longer require an expansion joint.

I always recommend brackets that hook to the front of the gutter under the lip and nail through the back of the gutter into the fascia. Brackets are your best bet. Cradels suck In Chicago spike-ferrul fall off after a few winters.

A copper standing seam roof in Chicago goes for about $15/sq ft installed.

Expect more than 60 years from a copper gutter with proper maintenance. I see original copper gutters on hundred year old houses around here.

Disimiliar metals? Sounds like your going with a copper roof and gutter system? Am I missing something? That's copper to copper. Is the fascia wrapped with alum or something?
 
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Old 01-04-04, 12:04 PM
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Thanks guys.

"Sometimes the savings that comes from doing it yourself can be blown away with one simple mistake."

Well said Grumpy. Thats why Im researching this to the fullest. Iv ordered the NRCA manual. Lots of time. But Iv got time to do it right & save. If I could work overtime I would not & just pay. But I work for the state.

My longest gutter run is 50' . Its on this run I could see in the old caulk that the edge of the gutter was almost a inch longer at one time. Either my gutter shrank, or the roof grew. My gutter spikes keep pulling out. Not sure if its the weight of the ice or the expantion. But nailing the gutter through my "copper to be" drip edge does not sound good to me. Id like to come up from under with hand bent copper cradles. Why do they suck Grumpy?

I know I will bendup & install a copper roof. But was wondering about where my water heater steel flue penetrates. & My wood burning stove. Also if I install seamless aluminum gutters, will I have dissimiliar metal corrosion where the steel flue & aluminum gutters touch? Im leaning towards copper gutters also. But cant get away from the steel flue & stove pipes.

Its me Ed. 20 oz copper is at $1.55 per lb up from $1.37 two years ago. I cant find a better price as of yet. & tempted to buy now before another price hike. Cant decide between a batten strip copper roof or shingles. The NRCA manual will answer many questions.

Mike Kolder
 
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Old 01-04-04, 02:26 PM
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Check this out

http://www.mbci.com/whatsnew/article_012601.htm

Says not to use lead on copper?

Mike
 
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Old 01-04-04, 02:31 PM
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Here again we may have some word interpatation problems. The type of gutter hangers I was referring to was the type that snap under the gutter lip come up and back around the outside of the gutter then screw to the fascia. They snap on from the bottom and screw in in other words. Nothing on the inside of the gutters. Nothing to catch weeds or small limbs. THese are what I call cradles. The type Grumpy said is the type we put on the most.
 
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Old 01-04-04, 02:32 PM
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Why would you want to use lead on copper ?
 
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Old 01-04-04, 07:37 PM
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Thanks Jack.

The solder is 50% lead. 50% tin. Which when combined melts at a lower temp than either by themselves.

I cant understand that statement on that url. 50/50 solder has been used for a long time on copper. I was also concerned with steel & aluminum touching the copper. I believe it has something to do with electrolysis.

Mike
 
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Old 01-05-04, 09:09 AM
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Giantscale:
Copper is a metal in the earth, it is on the chemical metal chart. Aluminum is also there, but has additives into it, and steel is man made. When these metals are combined with water (H20) electrolysis begins with the oxygen (oxidises) and things happen. They do not happen rapidly, but very slowly over time and in a few years, problems arise. There are many types of solder and the key when soldering is the right kink of solder flux.
Have a good day.
 
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Old 01-05-04, 10:44 AM
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Lightbulb copper

For all copper work roof, gutters, cupola, you name it. Id use 50/50 solder with cut muractic acid. For water pipes yes 95/5 solder. In any roof work or out side work with metal it has always been if its galvanize steel its all done In galvanize and if its copper its all done in copper. One will eat the other for sure.

"And" code here lets them put a galvanize drip edge on a roof that has copper flashing. They also dont know what a cricket is for on a roof.

ED
 
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Old 01-05-04, 03:34 PM
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I am mainly conserned with my galvanized steel flue pipe & stainless steel stove pipe touching the copper roof jack & copper roof. The galvanized steel flue pipe is grounded if that makes any difference.

Mike
 
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Old 01-05-04, 03:39 PM
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Grounding does not make any difference. This is a chemical reaction, not an electrical reaction. Let me look some stuff up and maybe I can give you a good answer to your problem.
 
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Old 01-06-04, 07:55 AM
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It's actually both a chemical and electrical reaction. Electrochemical. Just like your car battery. Don't allow the dissimilar metals to have any direct metal-to-metal contact. Grounding won't help.
 
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Old 01-13-04, 02:59 PM
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lead coated copper is very common and is rated to last much much longer than plain copper. Also the solder used on copper is lead based.

Never Never let steel and copper touch. Bad idea. They fight from day one.

The reaction you are talking about is called galvanic response. Your not supposed to have dis-simmiliar metals in direct contact. However I do believe there are some metals that can be mixed together very well, if not how else can you explain bronze?
 
 

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