Drip Edge Gutter Question.


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Old 07-26-05, 02:58 PM
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Drip Edge Gutter Question.

New GAF Timberline Ultra roofing job.

Shingle ends are 1.5" past roof to facilitate gutter installation.

New drip edges were installed at time of roof job.

Half the people I talk to said the drip edge should be left alone, and the gutter placed where the dripedge STOPS (approximately 1" below the top of the trim).

The other half of the people I talk to said the drip edge should go INSIDE of the gutter, thus making you have to bend the drip edge away slightly from the trim and into the gutter.

Could somebody kindly tell me which way is the correct way to do it and why?

Thank you for you time,

OP
 
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Old 07-26-05, 03:27 PM
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All of the gutter companies I've used over the years use either technique, one is no better than the other. Depending on length of the run, you could start out with the gutter under the drip edge, but to get the proper slope needed for drainage, eventually the back of the gutter is going to be below the drip edge....see where I'm going with this.

If you have aluminum/vinyl soffit installed and aluminum cap work over the fascia, that should go up behind the drip edge for proper flashing and protection and will help protect any splashing water from getting up under the drip edge. If you have just regular wood fascia, hopefully the entire face is painted so it's better protected from splashing water.
 
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Old 07-26-05, 04:59 PM
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The biggest problem I see is people (roofers included) using drip edge (5" or 6" d-style) instead of gutter apron, and then trying to stick gutters underneath it. D-style drip edge is for gable ends, while gutter apron is much longer, and thus better suited for sticking the gutter underneath (as high as possible on one end, and not dropping below the flashing on the other end).

Theoretically, if you want 100% of the water that comes off your roof to end up in your gutter, and you don't want any water dripping out from behind the gutter (like right over your front door) then the gutter should always be tucked underneath the gutter apron. If for some reason the gutters fall away below the gutter apron, it isn't too difficult for a gutter installer to stick a 2" wide piece of trim coil behind the gutter apron and over the back lip of the gutter so that you don't ever have any problems (like icicles in the winter) behind your gutters. Because if the wind is blowing, water WILL go behind your gutters if the gutter is below the gutter apron.
 
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Old 07-28-05, 10:57 AM
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Thanks to both posters!

The "drip edge" that I have is only about 1.2" so the fact that I need a slope answers my question 100%. It really won't matter what I do because one end would be under and the other end... won't! I'm going to count on the over hang of the shingle going into the gutter to do the job. I'm not sure what the "gutter apron" is. All I have is alum. facia on the rafter ends, and a vinyl soffit at the base of the rafters. Between the sheathing and the shingles (at the edge of the rafters) is an (approximately) 1.2"-1.5" drip edge piece of aluminum that is slightly tucked toward the aluminum facia. I'm thinking that if I bend this OUTWARD (away from the facia) that I will be inviting water to go under it... so my thinking is it is better to leave it flush up against the facia and drop my gutter below that drip edge. Make sense? Or am I missing something?

Remember, the shingle hangs a good 1.5" out beyond the roof, and thus will go into the gutter by about 1.5" (+/-).

I'm using the vinyl gutters by Genova (I think Lowe's calls them "Severe Weather Gutters"... if that changes anything.

Thanks for all the great help,

Pete
 
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Old 07-28-05, 11:01 AM
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Use "those" vinyl gutter in a pinch, but for long term looks, performance, and maintanence seamless gutter is the only way to go. Spend the little extra right now for the aluminum right now and be done, or spend X amount for the vinyl, then in a few years spend even more for the aluminum....see what I mean.

"Only person that can afford to be cheap is a rich peron....they can afford to do it twice."
 
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Old 07-28-05, 03:07 PM
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What do you not like about the vinyl gutter system? Seems to me that they're the way to go. As to the seamless story... when you consider the 90 degree's etc that I have to make, and the part that the leader goes into the "seamless" have a lots of seams.

But I *am* interested in the scoop. I don't mind doing the seamless, I just can't justify paying a guy $1000 for a gutter job with $200 worth of materials.

I paid top dollar for the roof and I had to baby-sit and have the work done 3 times and double checked by a factory rep. And THAT'S a firm that is VERY highly recommend by GAF and other people.

I guess I just have a problem with "pros" -- in my experience, they don't do the job they should. In my opinion they do things one way if it is was their house, and a different way for my house. And the way they do it for my house ain't the way you would want it done.

Sorry if I sound like a jerk. I'm just really rubbed wrong with dealing with "pros".

Pete
 
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Old 07-28-05, 04:54 PM
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I totally understand and have delt with hundreds of customers with your same exact story, x company salesman brings a good speech about this and that, gets your money and a signature, then you get a totally different thing than promised. Been building my business as my grandfather taught me, my word is my character and I deliver as promised.

Problems here lies, I dont work for free. People that call me to bid a job want my expertise to do the job right, but when it comes estimate time, I'm too high priced and they go with the lowest guy around and get exactly what they pay for. Or they get the smoke screen by experienced sales and who has'nt been in that boat.

Anyways, unless vinyl gutter systems in your area are better/different than the ones here, they are just an unsightly mess with all the hangers necessary to keep them from sagging/falling down. When winter time comes I've seen many literally crak apart in the corners, numerious sagging (from insufficent hangers due to poor loading bearing quality), and usualyl after a certain point of sagging they just snap/bend into a non usable section of gutter. Not to mention they leak like a sive after awhile has passed by and the elements have taken a toll. They are just not a long term solution with any astetics at all.

Just my opinion, I'm sure when you save the money at the time of installation since I assume your tackling this yourself, it will be the best thing since white bread. Write back in 3 years and we'll see how the story ends Been at this game too long and delt with the pro's and cons of many products. If your paying over $4/ft for gutter, your paying too much, get another quote (pending typical single story ranch and minimal downspouts) Seamless means the no seams between corners unlike the old aluminum gutters-which are like the vinyl ones-that come in sections and are prone to leaking since you have X amont of joints to seal. With seamless on a typical gable end ranch, you have 2 end caps and the downspout adapter, hip, naturally with ANY gutter system you have to have mechincal joints to get around the bend, unless somebodies figured out how to bend these things at a 90*
 
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Old 07-28-05, 05:20 PM
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Op

First of all I would not put on vinyl gutters for anyone, even myself. They are junk. They look like junk after you put them up, and get worse as the time goes on. Now for your metal gutters. Seamless gutters are the best, however, these guys that do them have kind of high opinion of themselves, and they can be somewhat spendy. We put on 16' steel gutters all the time, and they do not leak. I give my customers a warranty that if they leak within 4 years, I will fix them for free. Now, your gutter apron goes into the gutter. You either have gutter apron on your house or you don't. I do not think that you do. You have Style D drip edge. Wrong stuff. But then you told the roofers what to do, so it is not their fault. Gutter apron goes on first and when done, it slips into the gutter so that all water goes into the gutter. Only on a very long run, would you run out of apron. I also never let the shingles overhang more then 1". More then that, high winds may catch them. Good Luck
 
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Old 07-28-05, 07:07 PM
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To IHI & Jack.

Thanks for the replies!

First, IHI...

On the roofing job. I took the HIGHEST bid because they were a "Master Elite" contractor, and GAF stood behind them with the Golden Pledge, etc. I didn't even blink at the quote! So that isn't it at all. My experience is quite simple, Guy x may say $1000 and Guy y may say $5000. In the end, they both do the same exact job, and with the least amount of energy and at the lowest cost to them. Actually, the $1000 has to work harder for his money so I think he does a BETTER job since he isn't ripping you off. But that's just me. Next, if you can find me a guy who will do my 96 linear feet of gutter for $4 a foot, I'll pay you $6 to get the job done right... and you can pocket the difference. The best you'll get is $900 for the job and that's a trunk-slammer outfit that will do crap work with the cheapest materials they can find. And the chance of the guy actually showing up when he says he will is 10:1 at best. Here's my theory: Pros are against the vinyl system (which is guaranteed by Genova, and in writing and insured), because it's so darn easy to do that they don't want the gravy train to end. As for the "seams" I call BS there too. In the end, I'll have a total of 6 extra seems that the because I'm dealing with 10' lengths. I have a hip to deal with and two ends on the hip... and then two ends on each side of the main roof... those would be "seams" with the "pros" too! Anyway, seems that the vinyl jobs you've seen didn't follow the specs. There are a certain number of clips per gutter, and more is better than less (to avoid sagging). I've only seen two vinyl jobs and one look bad, done by trunk slammer. Another I saw looks great, the guy really did things right. Sealed with factory sealer and then resealed inside with good silicone... it's only been 3 years, but I think it looks great.

Jack,

You seem like a nice fellow, but I have HUGE QUESTION for you... you said I TOLD THE ROOFER(???) what to use?? Not in the least. They did what they said had to be done. I never heard of a gutter apron in my life, had the roofer told me that was what I needed, that is what I would have done. He told me that GAF specifies how far out the Ultra Shingles have to go beyond the sheathing (For Golden Pledge) and neither the Golden Pledge OR GAF OR the roofer has any information about gutter aprons in their paperwork or warranty information.

Also, you said that you stand behind the gutter job for 4 years... ok and then what? The customer gets up on the roof with some gutter silicon and reseals if needed? I doubt the vinyl will leak in 4 years. But I guess time will tell. The roof job is in a high wind area, and I had it written into my warranty that it is so. If the shingles blow off, I'll let GAF deal with it for the next 20 years. Hehe.

With all due respect, I understand you folks earn your living doing this stuff so the angle that a pro is going to do it "better" is fine... but the place *is* called doityourself.com -- I appreciate the tips and help and you guys looking out for me.

OP
 
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Old 07-28-05, 07:46 PM
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Old Pete

The only reason i mentioned that it was your call, is that you said you had to baby sit the roofers to see that they did it correctly. The DIY Forum is for people from all over to ask any questions they may have. We as professionals in our field try to answer the questions to the best of our ability, given the information we have about the problem. Now, if the person who asks the question does not want to take our professional advice, that is up to them. No Moderator or forum person is against Do It Yourselfers. However, when we see a shipwreck about to happen we try to let the person know. Good luck with your vinyl gutters
 
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Old 07-28-05, 07:50 PM
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We're not flaming or belittling, we as "pro's" are here to help out the homeowner from making COMMON mistakes that we see in the feild everyday and I'm also sure the other ro's" on here helping with questions are above the norm in our feild and are commonly called in to fix problems left behind by less than professional "pro's" that are just in this game to make a buck. I'm not getting rich by anymeans, believe me LOL, but I can tellyouo the job that I do when I leave I will not be called back to as I try to think out of the box (meaning LONG TERM) solutions. I work with less overhead than the "big" guys so I have room to play as far as not making a killing and being able to worry about quality work, since in reality, that's all I've got to help my business grow as I do not advertise other than yellow pages-which as others on here in this biz will also attest is a joke with nothing but tire kicking penny pinchers that I want nothing to do with anyways, since penny pinching and quality work do not go in the same sentence.

If you've had your run in with shoddy crews, I'm sorry, it's not just you, it's all over the counrty with guys that did a home improvement project with sucess in their eyes thinking they can conqurer the world.

Obviously you live in a somewhat higher wage area if your paying that much or have some really good salemen to keep the profit margin that high, I've baulked at MANY subs from any of of the many aspects of building when I ask a price and they shoot back numbers like your describing, they might make a few killings here and there, but these are the guys that come and go and leave bad tastes in folks mouths since any future problems, their gone, so where do you turn now?

As far as your vinyl gutter and joints, this wi my last post since obviously you know what you want and are going to do it, better or worse and will be the one living with it. Vinyl is plasic, plastic has a high rate of expansion and contraction, how much depends largely on composition of the material and the properties they use in their product (mixture) Youo will install these gutter soon while it's warm outside so the gutter sections will be "at rest" so to speak. This winter (if you live in a multi climate) it will get cold/freezing which will casue these gutter sections to contract (shrink) thus your multiple joints will be under pressure trying to stick together with your silicon and glue solution. Then comes summer again with beating sunshine and very hot temps, now the gutter will want to expand exerting mechanical forces onto all your multiple joints once again. Give it a few seasons like we've said and then keep stock in plenty of your silicone to repair these joints as it's not a matter of if, but when they start to fail-you'll have your caulking gun at the rady to start patching leaks.

Anybody that thinks all those exterior mount brackets looks good on anything.....

Good luck, glad to of been some help- to the others that have read this and heeded advise from guys that care about their work and finished projects.
 
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Old 07-28-05, 07:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Jack the Contractor
The only reason i mentioned that it was your call, is that you said you had to baby sit the roofers to see that they did it correctly. The DIY Forum is for people from all over to ask any questions they may have. We as professionals in our field try to answer the questions to the best of our ability, given the information we have about the problem. Now, if the person who asks the question does not want to take our professional advice, that is up to them. No Moderator or forum person is against Do It Yourselfers. However, when we see a shipwreck about to happen we try to let the person know. Good luck with your vinyl gutters

Thanks. Just seems that it's always a "shipwreck" about to happen. I have yet to hear what kind of sealant was used on the vinyl job that didn't look good. I have yet to hear if the correct (or extra) number of brackets were used with respect to the sagging, etc. To just straight say, xyz is junk is just plain silly - without an explanation. I've seen plenty of jobs done by PROS that turned out to be bigger "shipwrecks" than the Titanic.

I can't seem to find much on gutter aprons. I've cleaned my share of gutters and never seen such a duck. I've always seen just the shingle overhanging the gutter opening. Part of the reason for my abrasivness with my last post was because I became concerned about the possibility that perhaps something wasn't don't (yet again) correctly by the "pros"... but it seems that in South Jersey gutter aprons aren't a big thing... if you can tell me more about that, I'd be very interested.

I hope you understand, I'm not trying to be a jerk. I just have my own experiences and the experiences of those around me to guide me with respect to "pros" doing the work, and most times the work is done as good if you do it yourself and just take your time, read up, and use good materials.

A little example I'd like to share with you. Do you think a pro would use stainless steel screws for the gutter brackets , pre-drill the hole, and put a bit of silicon on each screw to seal the hole? No way in hell. I'd say MAYBE 1 in 100, if that. Most of these guys will just blast plain out zince screws into those holes, and to help with rust stains, and water going behind the fascia. My way might be overkill, but it's why I'm proud of the work I do and the fact that it lasts.

If I haven't totally pi**ed you off yet... I'd like to hear more about the geographic applications for gutter aprons... just for my own FYI, I'd like to know more about them.

Thanks for dealing with me.

OP
 
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Old 07-28-05, 08:13 PM
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Old Pete

I hate to tell you this, but in 35 years, I have never drilled a hole nor have I used any type of gutter hanger that requires a hole in the gutter. Thats why I do not have these kind of problems. Those that answered you also use these types of hangers. As for gutter apron, it is used all over the US. I would be willing to bet that there is someone within a few houses of you that have it on their roof. The shingle companies do not put any litiature on it in their directions, because it is not a part of the shingle system. It is part of the gutter system. In a great deal of the jobs, the roofer also does the gutters, and sometimes the steel fascia and steel soffitts also. They know how important the gutter apron is so they put it on. Once the new roof is on, and the gutter guy comes, it is hard to put in gutter apron since the roofer put on Style D usually because they knew they were not doing the gutters. A gutter apron looks like a letter L. Straight metal, usually ****e or brown, and hang doen over the eves between 2 or 3 inches, depending on which size you get. Hope this helps.
 
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Old 07-28-05, 09:10 PM
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Thanks for the help... Got it... now.

The brackets for the gutter don't require a hole in the gutter, the bracket slides into the gutter (the hole is only in the bracket). Just to clear that up.

http://www.genovaproducts.com/raincat.pdf

is the stuff I'm talking about (the heavier duty line)...

I just looked over each of my estimates (some included the option for the gutter end of the job)... and none of them mentioned an apron like that. They all mention the drip edge... this trully is new to me!

Ahhhh... live and learn.

OP
 
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Old 07-28-05, 09:21 PM
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Ihi

Thanks again IHI, I too was concerned about the expansion and contraction of plastic. That is why it is important to realize that some of the seals are meant to be chemically bonded (sealed with glue) and others are not meant to be... this way you allow for the expansion and contraction required. My guess is a lot of folks just glue it all up there and then b*tch and moan when it springs a leak. But I'll place my bet.

Not sure what you mean by the way the brackets look... you can't see them in the least from the ground, or on the roof. They are totally hidden by the backside of the gutter. The only way you could see them is if you were to lift the tail end of the shingle up and out of the gutter and look under. Which trust me, if anyone bends those shingle I'll break their fingers.

All in all I think it's a good product. I'm not too happy about not being given the heads up with respect to the gutter apron, but there isn't much I can do about that now. I've watch literally dozens of roofing jobs over the years (carefully) (what else is there to do when you're walking the dog. hehe)... and I've never seen anything like that. Always just the usual deal. That drip edge (somtimes they don't even use that!!), Ice shield, the row of upside down shingles and so on... but never anything as wide as what you folks are talking about.

Trust me, I read and read and read about this. It's one of the few jobs that I *had* to call a pro to do, and I didn't want any issues. And I have to be honest, after a few re-do's on the soffit, the roof and soffit looks better than any in the neighborhood, and stays put in the crazy winds we get... unlike other folks.

Ah well... time for some shut-eye... but seriously, thank you very very much for spending the time with me on this. I really do appreciate it very much.

OP
 
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Old 07-29-05, 01:50 PM
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I kept out of this, but i feel i need to throw my 2cents in after rereading some of it.

"Also, you said that you stand behind the gutter job for 4 years... ok and then what? The customer gets up on the roof with some gutter silicon and reseals if needed? I doubt the vinyl will leak in 4 years. But I guess time will tell."

A 4 year leak warranty is good. Most places will give you a year. After that they dont want to know your name unless you are waving a few C-notes under there nose.

Vinyl gutters are a great product if and only if you don't mind it completely falling off the roof time to time. I wouldn't install it on a dog house. I also extremely dislike K gutters in snow climates. My preference is half-round.
 
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Old 07-29-05, 07:35 PM
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ha ha, well... it is an interesting post to read. I already said my piece about gutter apron in the opening comments (sorry for opening THAT can of worms...) but since it appears some people have never seen nor heard of it, I made a quick sketch, to compare the 3 most common flashings I see around here: http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/thexsleeper/detail?.dir=af9d&.dnm=750b.jpg&.src=ph

Regarding vinyl gutters, I had to laugh when I read Hellrazor's comments, because I was thinking the same thing, but wasn't going to say it. I can't say that I know of too many pros who install the stuff. I worked with some briefly myself when I was first starting out... likely when vinyl gutter was still a new product, and it was junk back then. I guess that's what has formed my opinion and I haven't looked at the... stuff... since.

I also don't care for such a long overhang on the shingles. 1" is the maximum I would ever go, and I prefer a little less than a little more.

I'm also interested that since his drip edge is only 1 1/8" long, and his shingles hang over 1 1/2, no one else thought the back side of the gutter ought to be flashed with a little strip of trim coil. Or maybe that got passed over in the discussion. Personally, I wouldn't like the idea of wind blowing water behind my gutters. Kind of goes back to OldPete's original question.
 
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Old 07-30-05, 10:33 PM
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Hellrazor quote:

"I also extremely dislike K gutters in snow climates. My preference is half-round."

Why? I like the half-round for their architectural style--what's the benefit in snow climates (which I happen to be in)?

Brian
 
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Old 07-31-05, 04:30 AM
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Basicly: K gutters can not be cleaned out if they freeze shut due to the design. Get a hard winter like we had a few years back and you will be quite annoyed with them. Half rounds you can just pop a length of ice out and throw it down.

Half rounds are also a lot more rigid, they are easier to install, they dont dent and twist when a tissue hits them (ok i exagerated), etc.
 
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Old 07-31-05, 07:26 AM
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I dig that.

So you can't tuck the back of a half-round up under a gutter apron or drip edge, right? Is there some other combination of materials that you should use with half-rounds?

Thanks for the info,

Brian
 
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Old 08-01-05, 12:01 PM
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Thanks for the pic XS!

I've spent the better part of the day on the horn with a bunch of people. Friends, contractors, etc. none of them have yet to use anything like these gutter aprons.

I'll admit they seem like a GREAT idea for what they are intended... maybe it's my area (NJ) -- but none. I even went by 3 jobs in my area. Two new roofs, and an addition. Two of the three looked at me like I took a hit of meth, and the other guy said it isn't needed since the shingle goes into the gutter enough.

Have to admit, I think I would have gone for them in my apprication.

On guy I talked to chewed the fat with me and the only negative impact I can think of is that if the gutter backs up, then the water/ice will back up UNDER the shingle causing issues, etc. (cracking, etc.)...

In reality, I don't really know. I'd very VERY curious to have a poll started here on this topic.

Thanks again,

Pete
 
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Old 08-01-05, 06:38 PM
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Pete, the guys i roof with only use apron on a low pitch roof with the various rolled roofing installed. Otherwise its normal drip edge and i have the same worry about frozen gutters and ice dams. But, i could be wrong.. and its rare..
 
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Old 08-02-05, 07:42 AM
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Thanks Hellrazor,

This roof is very pitched, so that may explain things.

I've researched this (probably too much!) and the conclusion I've come to is that a gutter apron would not have been needed or even considered for my application.

I just got a little alarmed over the whole thing as if I'm going to pay somebody to do something... it's going to be done right. Without exception. In the end, these guys did a great job. No complaints.

The gutter job is 70% done and so far I have to say, I'm pleased with the way the stuff goes up and looks. Obviously I don't know how it is going to hold up, but thus far I've had no problems dealing with the mfg. (Genova)... they seem like they are going to bend over backwards if something *does* go wrong, provided I install it to spec (which I am.) (The only thing I'm doing different is adding an extra gutter bracket here and there... which they have informed me, in writing, that this is perfectly fine.)

From what I see, in the beginning, the vinyl gutters weren't very good... but it has been quite a few years since they've been out, and I think the kinks have been worked out. The guys that do it for a living (seamless, etc.) naturally aren't going to have much good to say about the system since it costs next to nothing, and you can do it with about 3 tools and patience. (at least on a single story house). If this was a two story house, I wouldn't do it myself... but that's just me.

Anyway. Thanks to all, again for the help. I hope anyone considering vinyl gutters takes a look at all the options and makes their own choices. There are other brands aside from Genova, which I think are even better... so be sure and look at those.

Good Luck & Thanks,

Pete
 
 

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