Flashing Problems - Brick and Wood (aren't I lucky)....


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Old 11-29-11, 06:38 PM
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Flashing Problems - Brick and Wood (aren't I lucky)....

10 year old, two story house with two leaks, both of which can be traced to flashing (or more precisely lack thereof). Have researched and not found these precise circumstances elsewhere so appreciate the help. Don't have pictures now, but will provide if needed.

Leak 1 The one story garage's roof line runs perpendicular out from the front of the house. The roof is composite shingles and butts against the full brick facade on the house. The house extends out about two feet to accommodate bay widows at the gutter level of the roof, thus creating a "stretched Z" intersection, creating a place for water to pool, as well as gather and stream down over the end of the gutter, either due to overflow, or slipping between the gutter and the brick wall. This is further aggravated by the upper roof gutter emptying out onto the garage roof. While you'd think this would distribute evenly, it seems to want to drain inwards toward the house, adding to the water volume.

The leak is showing up behind the Tyvek and rotted out a small area of the sheathing and the floor OSB on the first floor as seen from the basement.

Questions for Leak 1
1 - Would the volume of water (heavy rains and snow melt) be sufficient to create this leak through masonry, or is there another structural failure I should be looking for?

2 - Is there a better way to divert the higher gutter drainage to disperse throughout the roof (it just sort of drops on without room for an elbow)? I've considered running a downspout line along down the roof against the house, but think that's ugly where I've seen it before.

3 - For the counterflashing, I've seen both a step flashing and a singular piece. Since (unlike a chimney) the long run here is going to be stepped, is there any code or considerations of which type I use? Is it necessary to anchor with screws or can it be held in place with caulking in the masonry grooves?

4 - Am I just being unrealistic in expecting that this should've been code / caught? (This condition has been since new)

5 - Am assuming I'm going to need to rent or buy a brake as this stuff will likely not be available in pre-bent form.

Leak 2 Structural chimney which is (ironically) sided with cedar (as opposed to brick) abutting a new addition that has composite shingles. The chimney intersects the roofline of the addition on the slope, and there apparently is no flashing that can be seen here either.

Questions for Leak 2

1 - What is the appropriate flashing for this situation? I'm guessing sheet tins interweaved with the shingles.

2 - Is there such thing as counterflashing against cedar siding (haven't seen it) or do you just caulk the cedar-to-sheet tins joint?

Thanks in advance for your help - the only "roofing store" in town is not to friendly to DIYers and this forum is a great lifeline!!!
 
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Old 11-29-11, 07:45 PM
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Hard to answer questions like that without pictures. One thought I would have is that if you don't currently have 3x4 drops and downspouts, upgrade to them. They will move twice the volume of the smaller 2x3 outlets and downspouts, which may help your lower gutter drain faster and help eliminate the problem.

2nd, in places where a fascia meets a perpendicular surface, it is almost ALWAYS a leak waiting to happen because they are rarely built/flashed correctly. Hard to suggest anything without knowing exactly where the leaks are in relation to this area, and I can't picture what a stretched z is. I'm guessing there is a little space between the garage gutter and the bow window roof? Is there a kickout flashing on the last row of shingles to divert water away from the wall and into the gutter (to help keep it from missing the gutter and rotting the fascia?)

As for the flashing questions, step flashing is always better on a rake than a singular flashing is. The step shingles simply butt up to the adjoining wall (no caulk needed) and a separate counterflashing covers the top of them. Depending on what is most logical, the counterflashing can either be stepped (as on most chimneys) or solid (which is usually done along with a termination bar/cap). The counterflashing is either tucked behind the siding and housewrap, or if that's not possible, it is applied to the surface of the subtrate using the termination bar to cap the top edge and the top edge is then sealed with sealant. I have also seen the top leg of counterflashing tucked into a kerf that has been cut in the brick, which can then be sealed with sealant.

Sorry if I can't be more specific in answering your questions. I'm sure with some pics and some discussion it will all become clear.
 
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Old 11-29-11, 11:39 PM
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For not having pictures you did remarkably well - the fascia comment was dead on. Don't know what it is supposed to look like, but I know what it doesn't. Downspout comment is valid as the 2x3 is what I have, although a lot of water isn't even getting the opportunity.

When the sun does decide to get back up around WI tomorrow, will take some pictures that more fully explain.
 
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Old 11-30-11, 10:34 PM
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XSleeper - did get great pictures (for taking on a blackberry) but am having trouble posting them / finding the icon for photos and albums. Have an email into the webmaster for help. Will get them up as soon as possible.
Thanks for your udnerstanding.
 
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Old 12-01-11, 03:15 AM
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Old 12-01-11, 10:20 PM
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Thanks Chandler - that Photobucket thing isn't in the FAQs on the main website, so may be some disconnect. Anyhow, have successfully updated with the pictures...

Fitchburg-20111130-00016.jpg picture by dnspade - Photobucket

Fitchburg-20111130-00016.jpg picture by dnspade - Photobucket

Fitchburg-20111130-00016.jpg picture by dnspade - Photobucket
 

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Old 12-02-11, 02:08 PM
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Since there is no counterflashing exposed on the brick, there is really no way of telling WHAT they did without tearing into it a little. There "OUGHT" to be an L-flashing that flashes the vertical walls from the roof. On top of that, there "should be" a steel lentil supporting the brick above the roof sheathing, since the brick should not just be sitting on top of the roof framing. The steel lentil is basically just a steel L that is lag bolted to the wall framing. The thing that is concerning is the little zig zag that you mentioned, where water would have a tendency to sit in that corner. That area really ought to have been treated like a valley or cricket so that water could drain out around the corner.

I can't really say what your best approach should be, but a good roofing company should be able to fix all this when they tearoff and reroof, provided they have a good tinner who can attach some counterflashing like we talked about before. You would want several estimates and get specific answers as to how they plan to flash those areas.

I will say that caulk or roof sealant is NOT your best solution for these leaks. Mechanical flashings are ALWAYS the best solutions for leaks of this nature.
 
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Old 12-04-11, 12:53 PM
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x-sleeper - thanks for looking, will probably let the pros handle it, although really would prefer to do it myself as I know it would get done right. Two quick questions in follow-up...

Am in WI - would this be best left until spring?

You mentioned in an earlier post that you've rarely seen gutters butting up against brick walls "done right"...my guess in this case would step flashing interwoven into the shingles with the last one custom made to have a drip edge into the gutter, covered with a counterflash that extends horizontally out the width of the gutters and overhangs. Thoughts?
 
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Old 12-04-11, 04:22 PM
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What i meant by that was the the first shingle should have a kickout flashing, so that water running down the roof is diverted slightly away from the end of the gutter and fascia. Its a simple thing to do and it can help prevent a lot of problems.

But a lot of leak problems go back to the order of things when the house is being built. I took a class once where they recommended that ideally, a membrane should be installed against the house before gable framing and subfascia is installed against that 2 story wall, so that IF water would happen to get behind the siding or what have you, it would shed out on top of this membrane which would then shed on top of the housewrap so that no water would ever reach the sheathing. Gravity and the inertia of water running down the roof tend to force water down and behind siding as it runs off a roof and missed the gutter. A kickout flashing helps divert most of this water. But if you have a leak, its possible that in addition to the roof flashing being insuficient, the way the house was covered with WRB (your housewrap) is also insufficient. But it's kind of hard to fix that now that the house is bricked. Not trying to scare you, just explaining the statement you asked about.
 
 

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