Questions on Roof Job in Progress

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Old 08-27-12, 06:29 PM
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Questions on Roof Job in Progress

Having an architectural shingle roof installed in NYS. Grace Shingle-mate is the underlayment. For some reason they started with that at midroof and worked their way up, then installed the Grace ultra ice/water shield from eave up. Seems they were able to keep the overlaps always top over bottom as you look from peak to eave. Usually from what I know they go from bottom to top. I noticed there were a few areas where light shows through the Shingle-mate; probably due to the staples hitting a space between the old tongue and groove decking. Should i have them patch that over with some pieces of tape or water shield or is that normal?

Where a porch hip roof meets a vinyl wall, can they install the proper flashing without temporarily removing the bottom part of the vinyl wall?

Shall I assume that no black roofing cement should be used (tar?) on the chimney? Contract calls for step, apron flashing and back pan around chimney. Counter flashing against chimney to ensure watertight area, copperwork soldered etc. Where the upper copper edge is placed in between bricks pointing mortar should be used yes?

thanks. I ask all this because some things have been done differently than I was told they would so then I feel I have to pay more attention.
 
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Old 08-27-12, 08:42 PM
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Welcome to the forums!

I ask all this because some things have been done differently than I was told they would so then I feel I have to pay more attention.
Can you tell us what the agreements were, and what you're observing that appears to be different than the agreement?
 
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Old 08-27-12, 09:59 PM
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I'm not familiar with the Grace Shinglemate underlayment, but a few things don't sound right. For starters, every underlayment manufacturer I've had experience with required that the underlayment be installed with cap-nails, NOT staples. It's been a few years since I've actively been a roofing inspector, so if the cap-nail requirement no longer exists, I stand corrected. You might want to check Grace's website, where they should have installation instructions, or just call their 800 number to speak with a tech rep. If the manufacturer's installation instructions aren't precisely followed, it could be grounds for denial of any warranty claims in the future. And that's the entire roof system, not just the underlayment. There should be no daylight visible, anywhere, through the underlayment. That alone would void any warranty. Manufacturers are quite explicit in stating the amount of overlaps required in both directions to eliminate underlayment "holidays." And it goes without saying that the underlayment overlap along the slope should be top-over-bottom--I've seen "professional" roofers do just the opposite, thinking no one would come up to look at their misdeeds.

If the contract you signed for the new roof states that it will be installed in compliance with all local and area building codes, another thing to look at would be the fasteners your roofer will be using to install your shingles. Both the IRC, most state building codes and most manufacturers I've worked with require that only roofing nails, and not staples, be used to fasten the shingles. And they are required to be long enough to penetrate the sheathing, meaning the tips will be visible in the attic. Using staples will be instant grounds for voiding the 30-year or 40-year material warranty you are paying for.

Your contract should state how flashing will be installed at walls and penetrations (chimneys). It would be in your best interests to have them install a "cricket" at the base of any chimney to direct water away from the flashing at those locations. And one more thing--"shiners" are not allowed, but must be replaced by pulling and replacing the entire affected shingle correctly. Sloppy roofers will put a dab of caulk on the shiners and call it good--wrong!
 

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Old 08-28-12, 05:01 AM
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new roof

Thanks very much for your response. What is a shiner? And is mastic cement still used these days or good caulking? I was always under the impression 'tar' type cement is avoided for residential.
 
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Old 08-28-12, 06:38 AM
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1. Deck Repair of damaged tongue and groove 1x8s: contract called for 3/4" CDX 4-ply fir; they used pine planks.
2. Contract called for 6ft of ice and water shield from eave--their idea not mine--they installed 3ft. That's ok with me, here in lower NYS and my 8-12 roof not that big a problem. But it brought into question whether installer read my specific contract.
3. GAF says staples OK for shinglemate if shingles installed same day; that was not possible so overnight--tarp wasn't big enough to cover whole roof--part of underlayment got wrinkled. Contractor says it will flatten when dried out. Says pinholes not an issue. They also installed shingle first--above the three feet where the ice/water shield was to be, then did the ice/water shield. Though they maintained the proper overlap throughout, I noticed that since it's not the norm from what I've researched.

Thanks.
 
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Old 08-28-12, 06:45 AM
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I'm starting to be uncomfortable with this and it's not my roof....
 
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Old 08-28-12, 06:56 AM
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oh well

Well, the good side is that the co. has a good reputation, doing this a long time, fully insured etc. I can see where pinholes might not be a big issue, where one plank of pine--does pine shrink more than plywood?--is not crucial etc. I have been in touch with the rep and I think they have replaced the wrinkled underlayment. Big volume companies may tend to value speed above strict adherence to guidelines. There's probably a degree of latitude in the installation that can still assure a leak-free roof. It's probably rare to find a contractor that's super fastidious AND truly fully insured. I'm also keeping track of all this so they're aware they're getting more attention than they usually get.
 
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Old 08-28-12, 07:37 AM
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A shiner is a nail head that's visible (reflecting the rays of the sun, and thus "shining"). It means any such fastener was not installed at the correct location, at least an inch above the next course's lap line, such that it's not visible and not prone to water leakage. Asphaltic mastic is acceptable for use on residential shingle work.
 
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Old 08-28-12, 01:37 PM
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Deck repair with similar materials is OK, but they must span at least 3 rafters with any board. Are they gonna credit you with the other 3' of product they didn't use??
 
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Old 08-28-12, 02:28 PM
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Speed is indeed the name of the roofing-install game, regardless of the size of company. And installers often don't read contract specifics, either (based on what I've observed first-hand), or even shingle installation instructions printed on each bundle's wrapper.

Some advice--Document your findings with lots of pix, and request the manufacturer provide a written (on his letterhead) statement that the warranty will be fully valid per product warranty period, even though you've brought to his and the roofer's attention the things that were done contrary to the contract, installation instructions, and/or applicable building codes. A shingle rep's "we'll stand behind it" remark won't mean squat when the roof is leaking and the rep is no longer in the picture.
 
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Old 08-28-12, 07:08 PM
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roof job

Thanks for the replies. shingle mostly done; gutters have to be re-attached. I'm attaching some photos. My questions would be:

1. Chimney copper flashing has a nice curve in back and front but not on sides--to direct water away from flashing. Look good?
2. To me drip edge looks not out far enough, so that it will easily fit into the gutter when it's re-installed without bending it out.
3. The shot of rake meets eave shows some loose coil work from 6 year old vinyl job. Guess that could be tightened to improve water flow.
4. Shingle overhang sometimes looks close to two inches, 1.5 max was specified. Opinions differ on this, but for any future gutter guard I have installed, I don't want the shingles out so far they reduce the water catchable area of the guard and gutter.

Thanks. See attached photos.
 
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Old 08-28-12, 07:36 PM
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1. Chimney copper flashing has a nice curve in back and front but not on sides--to direct water away from flashing. Look good?
Looks very good. The flashing starts under the shingles on the sides and lays out onto the shingles in the front and rear, as it must to perform. And it's formed with the 90o angle it's flashing on the sides.

2. To me drip edge looks not out far enough, so that it will easily fit into the gutter when it's re-installed without bending it out.
Ogee gutters? How thick are those in the back? Short of adhering the drip edge to the fascia, I don't think they could make it so tight the gutter couldn't be slid into place.

4. Shingle overhang sometimes looks close to two inches, 1.5 max was specified. Opinions differ on this, but for any future gutter guard I have installed, I don't want the shingles out so far they reduce the water catchable area of the guard and gutter.
Looks a bit long. Hard to tell without a reference. I'm imagining it could be trimmed a bit, if you want to. Is the same company installing the gutters? Ask them.
 
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Old 08-28-12, 08:44 PM
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First row of shingles overhangs too far. First good wind storm will pull them back and break them. Assuming the wind doesn't get them, even with a proper starter course underneath, when they get hot, those shingles will fold over and bend to the point of breaking after a season or two. As I recall, most manufacturers like not more than 1" or so. My leftover bundle wrapper of GAF-Elk Timberlines says 1/4" to 3/4".

What length nails were used?

It's a bummer when the homeowner has to provide quality control for a project he/she is paying for. No superintendent on the job, or just grunts?
 
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Old 08-29-12, 05:19 AM
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roof

Thanks, no, no superintendent, just the leader and his crew which makes it a bit harder for the customer to express concerns since you don't want to interrupt their work.

Nails were 1.25" long, so most stuck about 1/4" through the decking in the attic.

Re: overhang, there seems to be a concern amongst some roofers that unless the overhang is two inches, there's more risk of falling water adhering to the underside of the shingle and getting behind the gutter. Seems like the drip edge would prevent that. Seems like most of the time the manufacturers requirements are there for a carefully researched reason, though of course there are times when installers in the field come up with better solutions that then get incorporated into official specs later.

You also rarely hear roofers in the field address the issue of the height of the gutter placement on the fascia--see attached illustration--which varies with the roof pitch. (mine is about 8/12).

Thanks to sites like this and info available on the internet, a customer can at least learn alot of good questions to ask to help assure quality control, even though such questions are not always welcome.

(Illustration from "Roofing Flashing & Waterproofing," from Editors of Fine Homebuilding 2005 The Taunton Press, Inc.)
 
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Old 08-29-12, 11:07 AM
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Roof

I took a look at the hip roof on the porch today. Shingling work looks good to my eye. The shingle overhangs drip edge runs 2 to 2.125" measured on a straight line from the drip edge. If measured along the shingle probably runs more. Shingle ends already starting to curl. I see starter shingles stick out slightly under first row--probably that's correct--but I guess we lose that if shingles are trimmed.

Also note in other picture the drip edge by the corner is a little bent--easily re-bent I guess--but do drip edges have corner pieces so the edge is continuous? (for the main house roof, company doesn't do drip edges on the rake, so what happens when the eave drip edge meets the bottom of the rake in this situation?)

J channel old vinyl flashing by wall took a little hit from the re-flashing. no one will see this so not an aesthetic thing but perhaps it could be trimmed so edges don't bend upwards.
 
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Last edited by D2363; 08-29-12 at 11:27 AM.
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Old 08-29-12, 12:41 PM
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old vinyl flashing by wall took a little hit from the re-flashing. no one will see this so not an aesthetic thing but perhaps it could be trimmed so edges don't bend upwards.
Can it be bent or re-shaped, rather than trimmed and shortened?
 
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Old 08-31-12, 09:12 AM
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Gutters Back on

Company's gutter crew came out today and did a stellar job putting the gutters back up, adding hangar supports, replacing the originally incorrectly installed small ports with the larger ones --going into the 3x4 leader. They also re-pitched two garage gutters at no charge and installed two different samples of gutter guard on a trial basis. (Gutter topper and Drop Screen.)

While the porch shingles will have to be trimmed, it appears to my layman eyes that the front and back roof shingles don't sit too far out into the gutter--though the wide angle camera view is a bit misleading.

Only two questions remain for me: the drip edge was installed a bit tight, so had to be bent to slide gutter in. Hard to tell from the photos, but in one gutter it might need to be slotted with snips by the hangar supports to push it a little back towards the gutter wall. (The porch drip edge was slotted.)

Also, plumbing vent flashing is correct, yes?

At this point I am reasonably happy with this job. Sites like this are a major help to homeowners, and I thank you all for your good advice. The company should have repaired more decking and with the correct wood, should have used more care with the underlayment avoiding pinholes, had a little less shingle overhang and installed the drip edge a bit more forward, but overall I look forward to not dealing with this roof or gutter system for a long long time. I would suggest to companies that they send out a supervisor with the crew for 15-20 minutes at the start of each work day just to make sure everyone is on the same page with any contract details. I would have paid a little extra for that.
 
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Old 08-31-12, 09:46 AM
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I would suggest to companies that they send out a supervisor with the crew for 15-20 minutes at the start of each work day
That probably isn't practical for most companies. While I'm not a roofer, I worked both as an employee painter and painter/contractor. Companies of any size have multiple crews working multiple jobs at any given time. The foreman on each crew is given the specs for the job and is more or less responsible for the job being done by his crew. The supervisor [or owner if small outfit] generally stops at all the jobs to make sure everything is going to plan.

Whenever you have an issue with the work being done - talk to the onsite foreman, he can't or won't resolve it - call their office!
 
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Old 08-31-12, 10:14 AM
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Shingle lines look a little rough, but that will mostly sort itself out when they self-seal in the hot sun. The real test of how good a job your roofer did is when you take your magnetic pick-up "broom" and do a perimeter run on the lawn and shrubbery with it, casting it back and forth on the surface. If you find less than a handful of nails (new and old) or staples, consider yourself very lucky.
 
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