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Water getting underneath roof and ice forming under overhang

Water getting underneath roof and ice forming under overhang

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  #1  
Old 01-26-13, 01:28 PM
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Water getting underneath roof and ice forming under overhang

All- I have no idea why this is happening but it is causing much stress on parts of the siding and has led to so much pressure build-up that I can not open the front door. This is a ranch home I bought 5 months ago, roof is new, about 6 months old. Was the new roof/shingles/drip edge not done correctly? When a new roof is done is the roofer typically responsible for the correct installation of the drip edge, if that is what it is?

Thanks for any advice anyone can offer me! ~Moe

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  #2  
Old 01-26-13, 01:41 PM
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None of the pictures really show much of the roof, so it's hard to tell whether or not you have an ice dam problem. The one picture that does show the roof and shingles doesn't show much snow, so I am wondering that this may not be an ice dam or a roofing problem at all. Is there a lot of ice and snow on the roof or not?

I do see a couple problems though on the final picture, on the bottom right. The flashing used was d-style drip edge, which is not the best flashing to use over a gutter, as it is not long enough to direct 100% of the water into the gutter. Gutter apron is better, or if they do use d-style, use 6" d-style which is longer. I can also see bare wood over the top of the gutter, which is not good. The gutters could be higher. But gutters are not the roofer's problem. Roof edge is... but from what I have gathered on this forum over the years is that not everyone uses gutter apron, and in some parts of the country they don't even know what it is.

Having said all that... that's probably not where YOUR icicles are coming from, since the icicles are BEHIND the fascia. This appears to be a problem where frost and ice are accumulating on the bottom of the roof sheathing, then melting (when it gets warm enough in the attic to melt) and the water is running down the sheathing and rafters until it hits the fascia where it drips out.

You might want to go in your attic and examine the bottom of the roof and see if you have ice inside the attic, where it is and try and figure out why it's happening. Tell us what sort of attic ventilation you have (soffit/continuous ridge?) and whether or not you have bath fans or dryer vents venting into the attic or if they are ducted clear outside. Attic insulation and unsealed penetrations (vent pipes, electrical wires, etc) coming up through partitions can vent warm moist air right into a cold attic. A lack of ventilation can trap that moist air causing big problems.
 
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Old 01-26-13, 02:03 PM
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Thanks X for your quick reply, much appreciated!

Well your assessment does make sense as I have no attic and the only ventilation is the small round circles you can see in the second to last image. So perhaps this has been an ongoing issue and the previous owners failed to disclose it? What would be my options of solving this? Better insulation throughout the interior of the house so that heat is not seeping and melting trapped moisture/ice? Or somehow trying to figure out a better ventilation system for the small space between the ceiling and the roof? ~Moe
 
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Old 01-26-13, 02:49 PM
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So the low pitch roof with the 3 or 4" round soffit vents... is that a cathedral ceiling inside? Or does it have a flat ceiling and you're just saying that there is no access to the area between the ceiling joists and the rafters?
 
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Old 01-26-13, 03:30 PM
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I have a modest home, I would not call them cathedral ceilings but there is probably 1 foot between the interior ceiling and the exterior roof/shingles. So no access to ceiling joists or rafters, unless we pull the ceiling down, which I am not eager to do as that was part of our negotiating the sell of the house, they re-did all the ceilings! Thanks again for you input! ~Moe
 
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Old 01-26-13, 03:44 PM
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Yeah that's called a cathedral ceiling, when the drywall is hung directly on the rafters. They often have ventilation and moisture issues. I was in a house once where water would run out of the windows below the ceiling pitch like the trickle from a faucet.

I'm not as up on this as Bud is, so maybe he'll be along to offer you some specific advice.

Out of curiosity, why did they need to redo the ceilings? Moisture/texture problems, I bet?
 
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Old 01-26-13, 03:58 PM
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They did not "need" to re-do the ceilings, it was for aesthetic purposes as they had plaster stippling excessively ...like scary stuff that hung down at last an inch and looked like frosting and I could not deal, so part of the bargaining on the sale of the house was for them to re-do the ceilings and make it essentially move-in ready. I hope to hear from Bud! Thanks again for your feedback ~Moe
 
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Old 01-26-13, 04:14 PM
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ha ha! well maybe that was their way of hiding previous water damage with their home-made texture job. It makes you wonder! If you wanted to try to PM him to get his attention, its Bud9051.
 
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Old 01-26-13, 06:17 PM
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What is the slope of the roof ???

It appears in the pictures as if it is very low.....way too low to be using shingles.


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Old 01-27-13, 08:10 AM
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The slop where I am having my front door issue is about 7 degrees and is shingled, I'm also having issues at the back of the house, there it's perhaps 3 degrees but there are no shingles on the back. The home inspector said the slop at the front was fine for shingles. Thanks Halton

X- the ceiling was definitely original 50's and there were no water marks on the old stuff. I'm not seeing any water issues in the interior ...all exterior.
 
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Old 01-27-13, 08:42 AM
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3 and 7????

Asphalt shingles shouldn't be applied to low slope surfaces!!! It makes me question the inspector if he said it was okay. Most mfg's say nothing less than 2:12 which is 9.46

But if it's happening on the back where there are no shingles, I think we are back to melting frost from condensation in the attic.
 
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Old 01-27-13, 09:28 AM
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X- I'm guessing, perhaps the front where the shingles are is more? ...i'm not sure how to determine the actual angle. The previous owners had a shingled roof prior to putting on the new roof in the front, and the back there are no shingles, so i'm assuming the roofer wouldn't put on new shingles in the front if they were not needed or met code?
 
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Old 01-27-13, 09:38 AM
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Besides the likely venting and insulation issues which is causing the rapid melt.....the water is obviously getting under the shingles. Either the slope is too low.....or perhaps there wasn't a proper ice and water underlayment installed.....or it was installed and the drip edge was incorrectly put on top which would allow the water to run behind the fascia.


.
 
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Old 01-27-13, 03:54 PM
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I'm thinking it's a drip edge issue ....how would I go about fixing this? And there is a lot of exposed wood which I wil also need to address. Do states have local building codes for how long drip edges should be?If it was not installed to code perhaps I can ge them back to fix the issue. And shouldn't my inspector have caught this?...esp the exposed wood!
 
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Old 01-27-13, 04:52 PM
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I'm here,
I read through the thread and it looks to me like an inside job, although I have seen water follow the drip edge back to the fascia board. How the water would be getting behind the fascia I don't know as yet.

A frequent symptom of moisture freezing on the bottom of the roof and melting is the timing. It usually occurs after a warm spell. Ice dams form after a lot of snow and those 25� to 32� temperatures that allow melting under the snow but freezing as soon as it exits near the edge. Since I don't see a lot of snow/ice on the roof, there doesn't appear to have been enough "snow insulation" to create the melting. With little or no snow on top, the freezing temperatures simple prevent any outside melting. More pictures of the top of the roof would help.

What is the ceiling material inside, sheetrock or other?
Do you have any recessed lights under the problem areas?
Do you know where kitchen and bath fans vent to?
Where the dryer vents to?
Do you have frost or moisture on your windows?
Do you have a basement?
What is your heating source?

I'm looking for obvious air leaks into that space below the roof or other moisture sources. Air will carry the moisture that forms the ice and melts when it gets warm.

Any of this making sense? Inside pictures would help us spot potential leakage areas as well.
 
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Old 01-27-13, 05:52 PM
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Hi Bud...thanks for taking the time to assess the situation!

Interior ceiling is sheetrock with recessed lighting throughout (now that I know you can not adequately insulate around the units I'm not very happy with them!) ..the areas where the water is forming under the roof. Dryer vents to the side of the house, bathroom fans vent to the roof directly above the bathrooms where the issues are occurring, .. but the area with the most problems can't open front door) we never use the venting fan, it's just a partial bath.

Yes I do have frost & moisture on the inside of the windows that are near the ceiling...but otherwise with the normal windows not that I have observed, I will look more closely tomorrow.

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I have a very wet basement, actually a little stream runs through it during the wet season and also as we speak...it was a very wet December with intense storms such as Sandy. Heating system is oil burner w/ baseboard hot water.

I'll try to gather more pics of the roof tomorrow.
 
  #17  
Old 01-27-13, 06:09 PM
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The moisture in the basement and the moisture on the windows confirms you have high humidity. If all of those recessed lights are not rated as "air tight", then that would be a major contributor to the air leakage. Are you running old style light bulbs or CFLs? CFLs will help, but the can fixtures will probably have to go if not AT rated. They do make a surface fixture to install directly over the cans, but last I checked it was cheaper to have an electrician come in and replace the existing lights. Air tight and IC (insulation contact) rated is what you want. Inside where the bulb goes there should be a rating on what you have,

What are we looking at in that picture?

Bud
 
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Old 01-28-13, 03:56 PM
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The thing that makes me almost 100% certain that its frost melting in the roof, is the shot where the gutter has no ice in it at all.
 
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Old 01-28-13, 07:26 PM
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I am certain the recessed lights are not air tight and not all bulbs are CFL's but working on that. I know they are also not IC as the insulation is about 6 inch's away from each canister. The pic is of windows that run along the ceiling and which have frost on the inside of the windows.

Well I think I've got a handle on it, much appreciate all of your good advice and feedback. Perhaps the next step is to bring in an electrician to give me a quote on replacing these recessed light fixtures and then put insulation and moisture barrier on the basement ceiling!
 
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Old 01-29-13, 02:47 AM
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Work on that wet basement, landscape to move it away from house, collection area and pump, to get rid of it, and/or dehumidifier to reduce the humidity. Just some of the options. A lot of that basement air circulates up through your house.

Yes, those are probably not air tight lights. I have seen ice accumulate to several FEET thick and then flood the house when it melts. Not saying yours will be that bad, but in any cast it is very bad for that roof sheathing.

At least you know where the problem is now, good luck and we are always here.

Bud
 
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Old 02-14-13, 07:25 AM
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Thanks Bud, I have no idea how to tackle the basement ...i think I'll have to call someone in and assess both basement and outside drainage. After this last storm we have 3 feet of snow melt now to deal with!

The roofer is coming today to assess the short drip edge but he's very defensive and first reply was he does not extend warranty's to new owners....the roof was put on last July!

Does anyone know what percentage of humidity is "normal" for the inside of a house? For now I have brought the de-humidifier upstairs from the basement, which was unplugged because it was basically useless with the amount of water down there!

Thanks ~moe
 
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Old 02-14-13, 08:57 AM
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In a room at 70 a RH below 50% is necessary. 35% to 40% would be better.

Smile, that snow will be gone soon.

Bud
 
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Old 02-14-13, 03:44 PM
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yes and the snow will then melt into my basement

Moe
 
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Old 02-25-13, 02:13 PM
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So the saga continues ....I am beginning to question if the roofer is even a real "business". He was very hostile on the phone today and had sent out his guys to look at the roof issues last week. They stated that they would return to seal the area around the roof vents and that the gutters where the drip line is too short is a gutter issue and not a drip line issue. I've now noticed exposed wood in several areas and some rotten wood under some shingles. The owner also stated he does not extend warranties to new owners, the roof was put on in July! ...is that even legal? I guess I will have to get a lawyer involved and contact the BBB.

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Had to vent ..brb, ~moe
 
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Old 02-25-13, 04:17 PM
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I tried to explain that the roof needed to be addressed.....but it was quickly dismissed.....


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Old 02-25-13, 04:59 PM
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So do you think this would be a roofer neglect issue? Or a gutter issue that the roofer would not be responsible for? ~moe
 
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