Another Basement Carpet Question /pad


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Old 11-17-04, 01:27 AM
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Cool Another Basement Carpet Question /pad

Hey all, working on a remodel, the basement has black glue over concrete that apparently once held down tiles. Current owners had carpet with no pad down there, simply placed on the dry glue. There was a slight bit of mold on it, didnt seem out of control...they havent had any known moisture problems down there. We primed over the glue with concrete bonding primer. (Not the correct product I know, but it dried and seems alright) I wonder what the best idea is for reflooring down there? The ceiling is too low to add a new subfloor, and the existing floor isnt perfectly level (glue highs and lows, concrete not precisely level) maybe 1/8" discrepency at the most. So I like the idea of a thick wall to wall carpet with a moisture barrier pad, professionally installed.
The owner is a big fan of saving money and wants to forego the pad to save a few bucks. "It's just going to get ruined anyway" I argue that the pad is necessary on a hard surface to protect the carpet, and better that if something is going to get ruined somehow, the .90 SQ ft pad would be a better sacrifice than the 3.65 carpet. Carpet tile is a viable option but I wonder about the level issue, and also if the owner is so concerned with moisture, how is carpet tile going to stick? Investment isnt much less, maybe $500 less for the whole room. Any input is appreciated.
 
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Old 11-17-04, 10:14 AM
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if the current owners "havent had any known moisture problems down there", why do they think the pad "will get ruined anyway"? that doesn't make sense. but if there was mold on the carpet, they DO, in fact, have a moisture problem and it needs to be addressed before decorative elements, like carpet, go in.

sounds like he's just cheap. if he's not even going to address the moisture/mold issue, he's certainly not going to spend a penny extra on such a frivolous "luxury" item as pad. he might as well go with indoor/outdoor carpet......or maybe astroturf!

what's concrete bonding primer? and why'd you use it, if you knew it was the wrong thing to use?
 
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Old 11-17-04, 11:15 AM
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Unhappy

Well, the bonding primer (from what I gathered on the label) was a primer that was supposed to make a chemical bond with the concrete. I assumed that as "primer" it was a white paint substance, and I also assumed that there was at least spots of bare concrete down there. Unfortunately we didnt realize that it was almost a clear liquid like varnish that is meant as sortof a "glue" between bare concrete and paint. So with can open, we decided just to go over the floor anyway and see what happened. It dried, (after 4 days) so thats enough I guess.

Note that I am trying to do the best job possible under the circumstances of a homeowner that comes down every few hours and gets irritated and makes a suggestion to do something cheaper. When we came down after the primer was dry with real waterproof paint, (you're just wasting time and money!) the parents exploded and we had to return it. (I'm working with the son, building him a new bedroom in the basement, he's lived in a 9x10 room with no windows and lots of spiders for 10 years) So we're pushing for real carpet in the room.

The preexisting carpet had been down for at least 12 years before we took it up, it had no pad, and the mold on it was minor, a few spots. The exception was a large black circle by one window, but that must have formed when there was a crack in the foundation there and water seeped in...the crack is fixed now. So for the forseeable future, the concrete is fairly water-sealed (by the glue and primer) and I figure a moisture resistant pad should protect carpeting sufficiently from this point. Maybe add a dehumidifier? Suggestions?

By the way, the area there is only "nice" now because my friend (the owner's son) has offered to pay for "frivolous" things like cable and ethernet, and a real 2x4 wall over the bare concrete. (the previous wall was toenailed 2x2's into the joists, in poor shape after ripping off moldy drywall and 2 layers of paneling, owner wanted us to re-use it.)
 
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Old 11-17-04, 11:34 AM
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need a PRO to chime in!

wow........that guy sounds like a real class act (the father). the good news is, if he pisses you off too much, you can have him arrested for child endangerment for letting his son sleep in an illegal bedroom (no egress window or 2nd exit - against most building codes), while you & your friend go get an apartment together!

at any rate.........humidifier: yes.

as for the carpet & pad, sounds like you're lucky to even be getting approval for new carpet to put down. you sure he hasn't thought of steam cleaning the old stuff & relaying it? sorry.....

i'm not a carpet pro.......maybe one will see this and recommend an appropriate pad and/or moisture barrier.

good luck & bless you for trying to help your friend.

P.S. what's "ethernet"?
 
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Old 11-17-04, 12:11 PM
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Yeah that's what we're working on now...approval to put down the new carpet I'm trying to find some ammunition against the all-carpet-tile idea. It was bad enough that his mom suggested vinyl tiles, but at least the father realized the floor isnt level enough for that. (He's a carpenter by trade, believe it or not)

Yeah we made sure to throw away the old stuff ASAP after we got it up

Ethernet is just a name for high-speed internet, we're running CAT6 cable to the basement from the "computer room" upstairs.

Anyway, any suggestions on what to say to discourage the no-pad idea? I have a few inklings but I'd like to be able to quote an industry pro.
 
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Old 11-17-04, 12:33 PM
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he's a carpenter??? good lord....with his attention to detail & the finer things in life, i wonder if he's ever had a satisfied customer???

i'm sure that pad helps the carpet to wear better. carpet laid directly on a hard floor would allow for the backing to wear out pretty fast. pad with a moisture barrier would certainly retard any moisture from directly wicking into the carpet. it's another layer of insulation, so it'll feel warmer & cushier underfoot. that's all i can think of, but i'm a decorator, not a carpet expert. common sense just says (to most of us) that pad goes with carpet.

P.S. is your friend STILL going to be sleeping in a windowless room with only one exit? if so, other than telling him it's really dangerous, make sure he's got 5 or 10 smoke alarms installed around the place, ok? i'd bet my life the father's a smoker........
 
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Old 11-17-04, 12:48 PM
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Honestly, he's not a smoker! I will make no claims as to what or how much of anything he's smoked in the past, however.

Happily, the new room will have two exits, and two small windows (not big enough to meet code, but eh) The ceiling is also too low to have "legally" finished the room, I know. (83 inches) However, the house is built on a slab with no real foundation, which is against code in the area...so no permits for that house could be obtained anyway until it's jacked up and a foundation is poured. (which as you may guess, isnt going to happen) Good news is, we have properly wired, grounded GFCI outlets now in the new room, on their own circuits, so fire should be less of a worry (at least than it was!) Any further comments are appreciated.
 
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Old 11-17-04, 02:32 PM
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While we're talking about it, what's a decent SQ. ft price for carpeting? Owner was looking for something sub-$2.00, which seems ridiculous to me. I just paid $22 a yard for an "okay-good" carpet in my own bedroom, short loop pile but not very dense. We're looking for a cut pile, thick carpet. The best contender thus far is a nylon carpet, thick cut pile, for $3.65 plus .90 for the moisture barrier pad. Is this a very expensive carpet, relatively speaking? I mean, I've seen $40 SQ. ft wool carpets but in the normal consumer range, is 4.55 too much? Thanks.
 
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Old 11-17-04, 02:48 PM
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that's do-able

i just spent less than $12 sq yd for a pretty nice berber for our whole house. that's only $1.33 sq foot. i was thinking i'd bought something on the skimpy/cheap side, but the carpetlayers even commented that it was really nice. i've even got it on our stairs & you can tell where it bends around the step that it's nice. and with my >>> PADDING
 
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Old 11-17-04, 03:54 PM
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I've no idea where to find an overrun warehouse around here, and I dont have the inclination to look at this point I dont think... I have no problem with berber, its also an issue of the right color though. "They" want a darker color with a pattern to it to "hide dirt" even though theres no direct doors outside from the room. sigh. The nylon I spoke of is the perfect color (teal/blue with muted red splashes) to match the hideous orange fireplace in the room, and I'm not too concerned with it matting down. Half the basement room will be a living room.
As for afford, the sky should be the limit. Both parents have jobs that make at least 33k a year each, they have no big expenses (if thats a surprise) and they own at least 2 other houses with renters paying monthly. Its just a question of getting them to part with the dough Thanks for the input.
 
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Old 11-20-04, 02:29 PM
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While we know that carpet wears better if it has cushion beneath it and we know that your taste in decor is better, the homeowner has the final say. If the area is small, perhaps a remnant can be found at a good bargain. And, there is always the inexpensive commercial carpet that can be glued down or installed over cushion. Berber is a type of weave and can be found in olefin and other types of fibers in carpets.
 
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Old 11-21-04, 09:46 AM
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This is one of those jobs, you wish you didn't take on, right! Been there and done that, got the Tee shirt to prove it!

I learned to bid some jobs on an hourly bid. I get paid for standing there while they change their minds and add extra work to the job.

If you primed over the black "cutback" adhesive with plans to glue something to it, Your going to be in for a surprise. You need to encapsulate the cutback, before priming.

Give the client options, while educating them on each option, then let them line item veto what they don't want done leaving what they want done and have them sign it. Give them a proposal, and let them edit it so you can make a final revised proposal for them to sign. If they want to be cheap. let them decide that, but also don't let them talk you into doing something wrong.

IMHO there are only 2 options for below grade basement flooring. Polished or stained concrete, or stretch in carpet. The risks are too high for failure if you glue anything down.
 
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Old 11-22-04, 12:19 AM
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Thanks for the info

Thanks CDW for all the info and the understanding... I trust your judgement on the stretched in carpet (polished concrete is NO option in this basement, way too much leveling and scraping for my taste!)
We only primed to make it look better and have a more finished looking surface under the new carpet (but since the primer turned out to be clear....) So yeah, that was a few days down the drain, but at least if there was asbestos in that glue it's primed over now...

Stretching in the carpet (done by the carpet store) -Should they tack the pad to the concrete somehow, like pad is stapled over wood subfloors? And will the same wood tack strips be used? Just want to know the best way to get it done, before I go ask them to do it

BTW, what's your opinion on carpet tiles? Bad idea? Good?

If we end up having to paint over the primed floor, what's the best product to use? Thanks again.
 
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Old 11-28-04, 10:06 PM
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[QUOTE=logan17k]

Stretching in the carpet (done by the carpet store) -Should they tack the pad to the concrete somehow, like pad is stapled over wood subfloors? And will the same wood tack strips be used? Just want to know the best way to get it done, before I go ask them to do it

QUOTE]



They handle that.
Some still use tape, some use a light adhesive spray (im a BIG fan of light adhesive)

Same? meaning the ones you have down already? i thought you said no pad was used? just an old rug laying there? if sticks are down DONT TOUCH THEM! let the installer handle that.

If youre asking "do they use the same kind of tackless that they use for wood"?

Yes and no. Same tackless, different nails. Concrete nails. Before they nail, make sure there is no radiant heat flooring down there. Sometimes rooms that never had carpet down (with tackless) did so to avoid hitting a water pipe. just a thought!

But you can glue them down. The area where the construction adhesive goes needs to be clean and dry though for a good bond.

Ed
 
 

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