welding rebar together

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  #1  
Old 09-19-03, 12:19 AM
millertime
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welding rebar together

I've never done any kind of welding. But I want to build an arbor out of rebar, so I need to weld it together. it just needs to hold its own weight up.

How do I go about buying a welding machine and learning this.
 
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  #2  
Old 09-20-03, 06:18 AM
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millertime:


<img src="http://www.millerwelds.com/images/blueguy.jpg">

This would be an excellent beginner project.

Your choice of a welding machine would depend on how much power you have available and how big an investment you want to make.
There are two ways you can go. Either a small stick type welder or a mig welder.
The simplest is a stick welder but mig units are becoming quite popular due to the ease at which you can lay a bead.

There is lots to consider though. A mig welder on gas doesn't work very well outdoors as a slight breeze will blow away the shielding gas and the short cable is quite limitting.

Tips from Lincoln and Miller.
 
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Old 09-20-03, 09:51 PM
millertime
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cool thanx. ya, I figured this would be a good starter project for getting into metal work.



how much amperage do I need to run a welder?
 
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Old 09-21-03, 07:41 AM
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millertime:

Depending on what kind of welder you get a small 225 amp ac/dc stick welder will need 220 volts at 50 amps.
A 185 amp mig unit will need 220 volts at around 30 amps.
I personally would recommend a small ac/dc stick welder to learn the basics. They are cheaper than a mig and if you wire in the 50 amp circuit you are able to sub-panel off the 50 amps to run a mig unit in the future.

I have a 180 amp miller mig unit and an old straight ac, 250 amp "buzz box" and wind up using the stick machine more than the mig.
Last year I built a steel 46' long by 4' wide foot/snowmobile bridge with my stick welder and this winter I'm going to build a 20' , 10,000 lb, tilting car hauler.

Have fun!

<img src="http://www.hhtrailer.com/black_hydra_ft/bh0010_1.jpg">
 
  #5  
Old 09-22-03, 06:00 PM
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Beautiful trailer! and solid advice from GregH.

If I may offer my two cents ..... I think IMHO that anyone with an interest in trying DIY home project welding should start small and keep it as inexpensive as possible. A 110 volt BuzzBox that usually needs a 15, or more likely a 20 amp outlet, will have an adequate cycle and produce enough heat for DIY home projects. In my experience rebar is just plain old A36 or A305 steel and can easily be welded with a BuzzBox. So can wrought iron and other ornamental metal items found around the home. IF as time passes and your welding use, time, skill and interest increases you can move up to a more powerful machine - or IF you lose interest and the BuzzBox begins to collect dust you have invested little.

Also IMHO, whatever you do buy, I think you are best off if you choose a name brand, example; Lincoln Miller Hobart etc. They keep their value, have excellent parts, service and solid worldwide customer service.
 
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Old 09-25-03, 10:14 PM
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The new Miller Maxstar 150 is a dual voltage input machine that interests me,,, very handy, a little pricey at 700 list. But I think it is the only 120V input machine to run a stick very well. I never seen one that worked very well. I try to advise staying awasy from the 120V machines for welding as they really tax those circuits to the max and with 240 incoming power is not an issue. Here is a site to see dozen of posts relating to equipment choices. http://www.hobartwelders.com/mboard/
 
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Old 09-28-03, 07:20 PM
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welding rebar

Even though the welding of the rebar is not the real question I would just like to note that rebar has a high iron content to it and is generally not recommended for welding.

As for welding I would like more imformation about what you will generally be welding, for about $ 250.00 you can get a ( DC ) arc welder which will weld almost any thing.
 
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Old 09-28-03, 08:52 PM
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I agree with P.W.. one tip, stay away from the ac only cracker box. DC is so much easier, its like night and day. I will never weld straight AC again. DC with 7018 rods
 
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Old 09-28-03, 09:34 PM
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Good thing to do is take a short welding course at night. Welding is one of those things it is hard to get good at by trial and error. I am sure the P.W. meant carbon content when refering to rebar also. Steel is mostly iron. 99+%. If you are getting rebar from a lumberyard it isnt a problem welding it. There is some used in engineered construction that is hi carbon for strength and tends to crack when welded. Rebar is actually labeled for strength on the markings, but its been a while, I dont remember the code. If you are stick welding it,,, just do it, especially if its not a life threatening structural application. I see a Hobart AC/DC machine for about 400 at TSC the other day. That type of machine can produce proffesional welds by a skilled operator.
 
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Old 09-29-03, 09:34 PM
millertime
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ya. these welds dont need to be structural welds by any means. basically just enough to keep the lateral braces from moving.


its basically 2 or 3 20' long rebars bent in an arch shape with an undetermined amount of bars running horizontally. I could actually tie the bar together with wire, but that would look terrible.
 
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Old 09-29-03, 09:35 PM
millertime
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Originally posted by sberry27
Good thing to do is take a short welding course at night. Welding is one of those things it is hard to get good at by trial and error. I am sure the P.W. meant carbon content when refering to rebar also. Steel is mostly iron. 99+%. If you are getting rebar from a lumberyard it isnt a problem welding it. There is some used in engineered construction that is hi carbon for strength and tends to crack when welded. Rebar is actually labeled for strength on the markings, but its been a while, I dont remember the code. If you are stick welding it,,, just do it, especially if its not a life threatening structural application. I see a Hobart AC/DC machine for about 400 at TSC the other day. That type of machine can produce proffesional welds by a skilled operator.

ya, I found a place that teaches a 3 hour course on a weekend. I've decided to read a few books on it too before I go to the course.
 
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Old 09-29-03, 10:08 PM
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A706 rebar is weldable.

Rebar is sold in 40 and 60 foot lengths in addition to 20 foot lengths. The latter maybe hard to find in quantity, because most US mills are on allocation.

There are a number of structural rebar connectors available that would make welding unnecessary.

Good for you... the course is a wise choice.
 
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Old 09-29-03, 10:31 PM
millertime
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Originally posted by 2000
A706 rebar is weldable.

Rebar is sold in 40 and 60 foot lengths in addition to 20 foot lengths. The latter maybe hard to find in quantity, because most US mills are on allocation.

There are a number of structural rebar connectors available that would make welding unnecessary.

Good for you... the course is a wise choice.

are you sure you mean the latter maybe hard to find? or do you mean the 40 and 60 are hard to find.

I know they make connectors, but that would look tacky, dont you think. this is going to be an arbor for a backyard landscaping feature.
 
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Old 09-29-03, 11:32 PM
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I stand corrected!

Concerning tackiness... beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
 
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Old 09-30-03, 11:10 AM
millertime
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Originally posted by 2000


Concerning tackiness... beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

true enough, but in my eyes I dont want to see any of that. I want to keep it clean and simple. if that means more work, then so be it.
 
  #16  
Old 09-30-03, 03:12 PM
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You guys are right about 120 arc welders being junk. I have a cheepy one for limited home use and wish i had put the $100 into a better unit. Its cycle life once you get rolling kind of stinks on a larger project. Plus its prone to stick more then its not. One reason i did not get a 220 was that i don't have a 220 line to the garage YET.
 
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Old 09-30-03, 08:04 PM
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Having welded since the 1950s and always seeing lots of hardly used dusty musty and rusty very VERY expensive welding machines for sale I'll stand by my suggestion that a "BuzzBox" is an ideal start-up tool for an at home DIY hobbyist.

The standard home project rebar I stock and sell has MDS - Material Data Sheets that show it as A36 and A305 which can be welded by a BuzzBox. I've done it, my customers do it.

Structural and other exotic grades of rebar - if weldable - will require other machines and other consumable electrodes or binary and ternary gases.

The rebar I buy and sell, regardless of diameter sizings, is sold to me in 1,000 pound bundles of assorted lengths. High chairs, low boys, collars, etc are also 1,000 pound package lots. Unlike natural growth lumber rebar doesn't have premium lengths.

I think good suggestions have been offered by all.
 
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Old 11-09-03, 10:00 PM
millertime
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First off, I would like to thank you all for the info.

Since I seem to be getting the idea that I should go with a cheaper unit, I am not sure of the capability of the units, I found this one at canadian tire for $200, but I dont know if it is enough to weld 15mm rebar together

Here is the pic, and info


Ideal for light & hobby applications such as garden tools, arts/crafts or ornamental iron
Fixed amperage (50 amps) for simple operation
Will work off standard household 115 volt power
Comes complete, ready to weld in a small case designed for easy storage
Includes 6' (1.8m) electrode cable & attached insulated electrode holder,
6' (1.8m) ground cable with ground clamp, 6' (1.8m) input cable,
face shield, shaded lens, cover lens, welder's guide & sample electrode package
For use on material that is 14 gauge or thinnner
Use 1/16" Areweld AC 100 & 5/64" Fleetweld 37+ electrodes (available in-store)
CSA and NRTL rated
 
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Old 11-09-03, 10:01 PM
millertime
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and the class I wanted to take is strictly an MIG welding course, so I guess I need to find some books to teach me instead.
 
  #20  
Old 11-09-03, 11:24 PM
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Read that thing well,, it says 14 guage or thinner and 50A wont melt warm butter. Here is the best machine for the $. Hobart stickmate XL 235/160. It is AC/DC and can give proffesional results. Anything less is a waste of money and it gives the largest choice of electrodes including 7018.
 
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Old 11-09-03, 11:34 PM
millertime
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Originally posted by sberry27
Read that thing well,, it says 14 guage or thinner and 50A wont melt warm butter. Here is the best machine for the $. Hobart stickmate XL 235/160. It is AC/DC and can give proffesional results. Anything less is a waste of money and it gives the largest choice of electrodes including 7018.

ya, I wasn't sure what they meant by the 14 gauge though, isn;t that pretty much just soldering?



I assume that welder you mention is 500 US. At that level I can be looking into some decent mig units tto though (which I have heard are easier to use)
 
  #22  
Old 11-10-03, 06:24 AM
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millertime:

The $200.00 Canadian tire unit you found would likely just frustrate you and turn you off to welding.
A much better choice and way less than a good mig would be a 225 amp straight ac machine.
<img src="http://images.canadiantire.ca/media/images/Workshop/WeldingSoldering/Welding/Equipment/0588016_100_SC_1e45b.jpg">
Image credit:canadiantire.ca

The one pictured sells for $369.00 CDN, is about half the price of an ac/dc or decent mig unit and can easily do some larger projects.
 
  #23  
Old 11-12-03, 09:58 AM
millertime
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Originally posted by GregH
millertime:

The $200.00 Canadian tire unit you found would likely just frustrate you and turn you off to welding.
A much better choice and way less than a good mig would be a 225 amp straight ac machine.
<img src="http://images.canadiantire.ca/media/images/Workshop/WeldingSoldering/Welding/Equipment/0588016_100_SC_1e45b.jpg">
Image credit:canadiantire.ca

The one pictured sells for $369.00 CDN, is about half the price of an ac/dc or decent mig unit and can easily do some larger projects.
some of the people here say that straight AC is no good though.
 
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Old 11-12-03, 07:57 PM
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Is it starting to get confusing?

millertime:

Well yes, some might say ac is no good.

If I read all the suggestions correctly, the concensus is you would be better off with a stick machine as your first purchase.
That being the case, your purchase decision will be mostly dictated by how much you are willing to spend.
The $200.00 Canadian tire machine is a 50 amp non-adjustable unit that plugs in to a 115 volt circuit. I would guess that the duty cycle would be less that 20%. This means that you would weld for two minutes and then would have to wait for 8 for the thing to cool off.
The 225 amp ac machine that sells for $369.00 would likely have close to 100% duty cycle at 50 amps. This means that you could burn rod one after another at the 50 amp setting and not have to stop for the machine to cool off.
The 250 amp straight ac machine I have was purchased used 15 years ago. I can burn 7018 ac rod all day long at 110 amps and the machine never gets hot.
I've burned lots of rod on projects like equipment stands, hitches, trailers, a stock car and my steel foot bridge.

Yes, dc burns much better, but a machine like a Miller 225 ac/dc would cost twice as much as the 225 ac machine from Canadian Tire.

So, on a budget - ac machine @ $369.00, blow the budget - $750.00 ac/dc Miller.
 
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Old 11-12-03, 08:22 PM
millertime
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Re: Is it starting to get confusing?

Originally posted by GregH
millertime:

Well yes, some might say ac is no good.

If I read all the suggestions correctly, the concensus is you would be better off with a stick machine as your first purchase.
That being the case, your purchase decision will be mostly dictated by how much you are willing to spend.
The $200.00 Canadian tire machine is a 50 amp non-adjustable unit that plugs in to a 115 volt circuit. I would guess that the duty cycle would be less that 20%. This means that you would weld for two minutes and then would have to wait for 8 for the thing to cool off.
The 225 amp ac machine that sells for $369.00 would likely have close to 100% duty cycle at 50 amps. This means that you could burn rod one after another at the 50 amp setting and not have to stop for the machine to cool off.
The 250 amp straight ac machine I have was purchased used 15 years ago. I can burn 7018 ac rod all day long at 110 amps and the machine never gets hot.
I've burned lots of rod on projects like equipment stands, hitches, trailers, a stock car and my steel foot bridge.

Yes, dc burns much better, but a machine like a Miller 225 ac/dc would cost twice as much as the 225 ac machine from Canadian Tire.

So, on a budget - ac machine @ $369.00, blow the budget - $750.00 ac/dc Miller.

Ok, I understand now. Thanks for the info
 
  #26  
Old 11-13-03, 06:48 AM
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I'll agree that DC machines have many advantages, but AC isn't that bad ... look at electrode choices .... that last # (the 1 in 6011, the 8 in 7018) tells the story about coating and current and polarity; from the Welder's Bible:
Zero is cellulose sodium = DC reverse.
One is cellulose potassium = AC or DC reverse.
Two is titania sodium = DC straight and AC
Three is titania potassium = AC or DC both.
Four is titania = AC or DC both.
Five is low hydrogen sodium coating = DC reverse.
Six is low hydrogen potassium = AC or DC reverse.
Seven is iron powder oxide = AC or DC straight.
Eight is low hydrogen iron powder = AC or DC reverse
7 of 9 possible electrodes coatings above are compatible with AC machines .... must be something good or good enough about AC machines.

millertime: You're just starting out in welding .... I pat you on your back for being big and admitting you know very little ... appears as if it's not production welding you're gonna do ... just hobby - around the house stuff ... so if I were you I'd ask myself "How much should I spend to try something I don't know anything about?"

About 20-25 years ago I tried fishing - something I knew nothing about ... bought a small boat, trailer, motor, all the best gear .... spent a couple thousand ... only caught one fish - honest. One stinkin' fish cost me a couple thousand ... I should have first tried fishing off a river bank first.

Good luck!!
 
  #27  
Old 11-14-03, 02:10 PM
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Hobart sells a nice little stick the StickmateXL 235/160 AC/DC. The main reason for DC is the wide variety of electrode choices and easier out of position welding. Vertical and overhead. Actually the cheaper the machine the higher the skill level to do good work. The reason I preach DC is that it is good for a lifetime and can do proffesional work should the need arise.
 
  #28  
Old 11-17-03, 07:44 PM
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re ac welders

I have used an AC for years. 6011s or 7014s rods makes your welds strong. ( a good grinder helps as well)
I had a dryer plug-in installed in my shop and a very heavy extension cord with the appropriate plugs on the ends. Any other 220 applications just require the one plug.
This type of welder is apparantly harder to learn on but unfortunatly I didn't know this and consequently caught on quickly. I guess if you learn on your own then you don't know the difference between easier and harder!
 
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Old 11-19-03, 12:52 AM
millertime
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Re: re ac welders

Originally posted by boflaade
I guess if you learn on your own then you don't know the difference between easier and harder!


aint that the truth.
 
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Old 11-28-03, 11:31 PM
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skip the 110 machine. Just not worth it. you want the beloved Lincoln tombstone-

http://www.jandrweldingsupply.com/store/AC225.html

I own other welders but that one I will never get rid of. It's durable, cheap, plugs into a dryer outlet and has all the power you will ever need. Sure DC would be nice, so would a wirefeed but I see these things used for $75-$100 at the swap meet all the time. I got mine when I was 16, still works great.

and if you have the time take the class at the college. If for no other reason than safety. And it's fun.
 
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Old 12-20-03, 01:59 AM
millertime
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so I should expect to pay between $600-$700 canadian, for good quality 220V AC/DC stick welder. and this will last me another 30 years whenever I need to weld something?
 
  #32  
Old 12-20-03, 09:25 AM
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A coincidence you just posted this now.

Yesterday I payed my bill at our local welding dealer and came back with a Miller brochure.
There is something about that shade of blue....................and it IS Christmas!

In looking at the info on a Miller Thunderbolt 225/150 ac/dc machine.
It has a 100% duty cycle at 65 amps dc and sells for $725.00 CDN plus taxes at a small dealer.
At that duty cycle you should be able to run 1/8" rod at about 100 amps on dc and weld at a normal pace without being too concerned about waiting for the machine to cool off or becoming unstable.
 
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Old 12-26-03, 08:44 PM
millertime
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I have been doing a little more research, and it appears mig welders are a lot easier to learn on, I am starting to consider one again, and this one looks like it might do the job.

http://www.millerwelds.com/products/...llermatic_175/
 
  #34  
Old 12-26-03, 11:14 PM
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Thats a nice little machine and I have one similar. My neighbor just bought an MM175 and he said he dialed it right up and it worked well, but, he is a journeyman also. there have been some issues with the auto wirefeed tracking system for the new users but most get over it I guess. If you want to save a few bucks the Hobart Handler would be fine also. For home owner repairs and some light fab work a machine that size has a lot of potential. Dont go welding trailer hitches on with it though. I am going to add,,, that a machine like that is a quality piece of work that is priced right and has a great warranty. When you get that blue one it isnt a risky adventure, they make lots of them, spare parts will be here for 30 years for it and its well tested and not some forign made marginal knockoff.
 
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Old 12-27-03, 01:38 AM
millertime
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Originally posted by sberry27
Thats a nice little machine and I have one similar. My neighbor just bought an MM175 and he said he dialed it right up and it worked well, but, he is a journeyman also. there have been some issues with the auto wirefeed tracking system for the new users but most get over it I guess. If you want to save a few bucks the Hobart Handler would be fine also. For home owner repairs and some light fab work a machine that size has a lot of potential. Dont go welding trailer hitches on with it though. I am going to add,,, that a machine like that is a quality piece of work that is priced right and has a great warranty. When you get that blue one it isnt a risky adventure, they make lots of them, spare parts will be here for 30 years for it and its well tested and not some forign made marginal knockoff.

To be honest. I dont think I should be welding trailer hitches no matter what kind of welder I have. I have no experience with these things. and mig's sound like they are a lot easier to learn.

On Miller's webpage, they say it can weld 1/4" thick steel, which is all my dads utility trailer has.

I still dont know if I really want to go through with this purchase though. I buy stuff for the long run. But, I am also concerned as to how much welding I will actually be doing in the long run. Metal work interests me, but I havn't really come up with any interesting ideas for projects yet.

I would go with the stick welder, because its not that much money, but it is more difficult to learn.


decisions, decisions, decisions.
 
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Old 01-04-04, 05:55 PM
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IMHO-

buy the best machine you can afford from miller or lincoln or
hobart. don't buy any other brand.

DC welding is the best for steel, AC for aluminum. AC or DC
for stainless.

For regular steel welding, I prefer DC.

For the beginner, stick or mig is good. Don't get a "flux core"
wire feed machine, as they don't weld as nicely as stick or
mig.

the 120 volt machines from those 3 companies are good, but
have a low duty cycle. they are fine for light work and
'homeowner' or hobby work. they don't stand up in industrial
applications, but you probably won't be doing that!

the lincoln 225 amp stick machine is GREAT! you won't go
wrong with that. they last forever too.

oh, and why not buy 3/8" or 1/2" round bar instead of rebar?
it looks much nicer and more professional, and probably isn't
any more expensive.

good luck!
 
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Old 01-04-04, 05:57 PM
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1 other thing - if you just want to try it out, how
about renting a gas powered stick machine for a
weekend? your local rental yard's got one pretty cheap
I bet!
 
  #38  
Old 02-25-04, 07:19 PM
stitches
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Re-Bar

I know you all are talking about welders but, I have to comment about the Re-Bar. I got a Century Stick welder for Xmas and purchased a bunch of misc. size Re-Bar from Menards. Came in 12 ft lengths. I built a Wind mill tower 12' tall, Fire wood holder for outside grill and a few other do it yourselfer projects. Re-Bar starts to rust as soon as it hits the weather unless it is primed and painted soon, we were looking for the rust look anyway..
I'm not a welder and learning to weld Re-Bar taught me tons. Very forgiving stuff since a hacksaw makes a great eraser!!
 
  #39  
Old 02-26-04, 11:43 AM
millertime
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Re: Re-Bar

Originally posted by stitches
I know you all are talking about welders but, I have to comment about the Re-Bar. I got a Century Stick welder for Xmas and purchased a bunch of misc. size Re-Bar from Menards. Came in 12 ft lengths. I built a Wind mill tower 12' tall, Fire wood holder for outside grill and a few other do it yourselfer projects. Re-Bar starts to rust as soon as it hits the weather unless it is primed and painted soon, we were looking for the rust look anyway..
I'm not a welder and learning to weld Re-Bar taught me tons. Very forgiving stuff since a hacksaw makes a great eraser!!
good stuff
 
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Old 02-27-04, 01:45 PM
boardslinger
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Do yourself a favor a buy a Lincoln Weld Pac 100. It' is a good machine to learn off of and will continue to satisy your welding needs when you become a master welder. I have one that was my father's before he passed away, and he used it for all sorts of side jobs from welding ladder racks to stands for commercial hot water heaters. He was a welder for 35 yrs. I think the weld pac is probably going to be your best bet. Good Luck.
 
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