Tools needed to install a hardwood floor.

Hello,

Could someone please tell me what tools I might need to install a hardwood floor? I have a good idea, but I don't really know the details. For example, I believe I need a pin nailer. But what gauge should be used? Then, a pneumatic floor nailer. This would all be for a 3/4" thick hardwood. We don't have the wood yet, we just bought a house and got a baby coming. The old owners had dogs and cats and the rooms with carpet (the baby's room, for instance) smells real bad of dog and cat pee.

So, I figure I need:
-3/4" plywood
-the hardwood flooring +10% - 15%
-pneumatic floor nailer (maybe 16 gauge?)
-pneumatic pin nailer
-vapor barrier and maybe underlayment (or is the vapor barrier the underlayment?)
-air compressor to power the tools
-some sort of cutting saw (I have something called a compound miter saw. Hopefully I can use that).
-Spacers to provide the 3/4" expansion gap that goes between the hardwood flooring and the drywall.

Then various moldings and stuff for the walls, once the flooring is installed.

Here's one of the pneumatic floor nailers I was looking at.
DEWALT 15.5-Gauge and 16-Gauge 2-in-1 Pneumatic Flooring Tool-DWFP12569 - The Home Depot

Can someone suggest a good pin nailer and what gauge I'd want and tell me if I'm missing anything?

I don't really know a lot about this stuff and never did anything like this before, so please go easy on me if I made any mistakes! Thanks guys!!!!

 

You'll want to coat those subfloors with a solvent based primer to prevent the odor from being released from the plywood.

 

How are you addressing the smell from the animals?

Do you think these are tools you would use again down the road? If not, might be cheaper to hire an installer.

Have you picked out the flooring yet?

 

There's carpet currently in the room. I don't think there's plywood under it. I was thinking maybe I should just tear it down to the joists and lay 3/4" plywood, new stuff, you know? I don't think plywood is too expensive and if I'm going to do it, I'd rather spend a little extra cash and just do it right, you know? So, I'd tear everything out on the floor until I got to the joists and then lay new plywood.

 

I can't seem to figure out how to quote your responses. But for stickshift, to address the smell from the animals that were here, I'm planning on just tearing it down to the joists I think and lay new plywood and then install the hardwood. I think that would take care of it. I think most of the smell is in the carpet and maybe what's directly underneath it. I doubt it actually went into the joists.

I will be using these tools again down the road. I wanted to do one room at a time, over a longer period, because hardwood costs a lot of money. For example, the baby's room would be done first, in the near future. Then we will save up money and maybe next year, do the guest room or the upstairs bathroom or the hallway, etc. Then work on the down stairs.

We looked at some hardwood at Home Depot and had a couple that we kind of liked. One I think was made by Bruce and it was called Oak Gunstock. Then there was some that was called something like HandScraped Maple Spice. My wife prefers the lighter coloured woods vs the darker. We're not 100% certain on which one we'll be getting yet...

 

To quote, click on the cloud icon at the far right of the tool bar.

There is plywood/osb under the carpet. As long as the subfloor is solid I wouldn't go thru the trouble of removing it. Sealing it with either an oil base primer or pigmented shellac is cheaper/quicker. Usually that will sufficiently seal any urine odor that got into the subfloor. IF there is particle board - it needs to be removed! as it isn't a fit base for hardwood.

 

Please be conservative in your use of this function, it is often over-used and makes threads much longer than they need to be.

 

Dewalt makes nice tools. For $99 you can buy a flooring nailer at Harbor Freight. HF tools aren't heavy duty but this tool is pretty good.....did my entire house with no misfires or jambs. Use Bostitch cleats. Bostitch nailers are good too but will cost more. Pin nailer will be too small.....get a 15 gauge finish nailer. Between the hardwood and plywood you'll want a vapor retarder. Aquabar B is a good vapor retarder and available at Home Depot. You'll use the miter saw. Pick up an oscillating multi tool to undercut the door jambs so the flooring can be slid under them. Would advise reading a book or 2. You don't anything special to help with expansion gap....tape measure will do. Make sure you acclimate the flooring before installing. You may want to invest in a moisture meter to check the moisture content of you hardwood and plywood....there are guidelines as to what their moisture contents should be prior to installation. Don't know what your budget is but there are better products than what you will find at the big box stores.....a lot has to do with the milling.

 

If this is new to you don't rush into it. Take your time and educate yourself. It's important to take your time and plan things out. It's typically a one-and-done type of project.....you won't want a do-over. It's not hard and well within the grasp of a competent DIYer.

 

Jimmiem hit the nail on the head with his posts - great advice and most of what I was going to recommend.

For an excellent read and a few tips, follow this thread that covers a lot of area you will want to brush up on. http://www.doityourself.com/forum/so...hrow-away.html

I will also throw in this National Wood Flooring Association Guidelines - http://tinytimbers.com/pdf/nwfa-install-guidelines.pdf

A small table saw also is quite handy for making rip cuts for walls parallel to the flooring. Speaking of parallel - to the joist. Remember that a complete subfloor tearout will leave you with no nailing surface or support along the walls parallel to the floor joists. Look for a 2 layer underlayment. Subfloor plus minimum 5/8" plywood or minimum 3/4" OSB (Advantech). You most likely have 2 layers now. Remove the top if urine smell is bad and replace just that one layer as outlined above. Simple 15# roofing felt will save you money on your vapor barrier.

I also agree with a HFreight tool for a DIY'er and the 15ga. angle finish nailer for flooring applications. 16-18ga. is too small. Pin nailer is not for flooring.

 

I installed the hardwood in my foyer and small office using my 16 gauge nailer [along with a hammer and block of wood] 15 yrs later and the floors are still in great shape. I do agree that 18 gauge is too small.

 

Thank you for your response. Because I don't know much about this stuff, I'll probably take pictures when we get to that point and have you guys tell me if you think it's particle board or plywood / osb and if it should be replaced or just sealed.

If we seal it to block the odors, do we ever need to worry about the seal wearing off years down the road and the smell coming back through? I'm guessing oil base primer or pigmented shellac wouldn't put off fumes that would be harmful for a baby to breath in. Also, I read for the hardwood floor, it should be 3/4" thick (the sub floor). If it's thinner, would that be an issue? How would we tell how thick it is?

Thanks.

 

The pin nailer was for nailing the spline into the hardwood floor. For that, you still recommend a 15 gauge finish nailer? If so, I believe my father might have one of those that we could borrow. That'd save some cash.

For the books, what books would you recommend? I'd rather spend the time learning how to do it right than spend extra cash on a bunch of mistakes. Right now, we have a little over 7,000$. However, BC Plumbing is coming and are going to quote us for a new furnace and a central air unit. I have a feeling once they install those, most, if not all of that 7,000$, will be gone. When you say there are better products than what we'd find at the big box stores, are you referring to the wood? We noticed at Home Depot, there's wood made by different companies that have the same name but look totally different. My fear for ordering on-line is we order something that looks good on the PC but when we get it, it's not what we want. If we could see the wood in real life or get some samples, I'd definitely be down for ordering the stuff on-line to save money.

 

My father has a lot of wood working tools, like a table saw and miter saws and stuff. I own a miter saw and a jig saw. It would suck having to go up to his house to rip the wood on the table saw and drive back down. I saw Skil made a flooring saw for a decent price, the Skil 3600 Flooring Saw. Do you think that would be a good investment? From the video I watched, it can be used as a miter saw and a table saw and is portable and designed to be used in the room I'm working on.

How would I check to see if there's two layers? When I get the carpet up, I'll take pics. If it's two layers and I can just remove the top layer, that'd save some money. Plywood is a bit more pricier than I first realized. The video I was watching said hardwood required 3/4" plywood. It's okay to remove a layer and then put down the 5/8" plywood or the OSB? Corning Building Company sells 3/4" 4x8 foot OSB for 21.95$ a sheet...I didn't know I could use OSB for the hardwood, so that's great information to know. Thanks!

 

Refer to the NWFA guidelines I sent to provide guidance as to subfloor thickness. There are several tricks to tell how thick your subfloor is. Easiest is to look under a floor register and see the cross section of the floor. If no floor registers, you drill a hole in the floor, stick a nail in it sothat the nail head captures the under belly of the floor, you pinch the nail at the upper floor height and pull out and measure how much nail was buried.

 

5/8" plywood is acceptable for a subfloor. An excellent book is Wood Flooring by Charles Peterson. Don Bollinger also wrote a good book. You'll only be using the 15 gauge finish nailer when you can't use the flooring nailer....e.g. when you are too close to walls for the flooring nailer to fit. A spline or slip tongue is handled the same way as the regular flooring tongue and gets nailed to the subfloor....splines get used when you want to change flooring direction. Insofar as ripping floor boards is concerned this is may become necessary when you get to the far side i.e. end of a room. Depending on the width of the room and the width of the floor boards you may not be able to use an even number of rows so you may have to rip the boards in the last row. The edge of this last row will be under the baseboard or shoe molding. So it doesn't have to be a perfect cut....of course a table saw to rip it would be quickest but you could dot he rip with a jig saw or even a skill saw. No table saw is not a show stopper.
FWIW, if you are going to be a DIYer and do lots of work around the house pneumatic nailers are a good investment and real time savers.
Also, the 15 gauge finish nailer can be used to install the baseboard.

 

The SKILSAW would be good for the job but not necessarily a good investment. You have to decide if you want to pay for the convenience for your project.
Concerning flooring, the better stuff will be found at flooring retailers vs the big box stores. It might be worth the time to check some of these stores out. Different retailers will carry different brands so it might be tough to do a comparison, but you will get a good education. At the risk of sounding un-American the flooring produced by Canadian mills are usually top notch. The prefinished flooring 'complaint' is the bevel between the boards that is a good dirt catcher. Take a look at Muskoka....they have the smallest edge bevel in the industry......really nice stuff.

 

Will do! I haven't had a chance to read it yet. Been busy mowing the lawn (for the first time!!!) and still trying to unpack everything, set stuff up. Slowly, I'm getting there! There's just so much to do, and so little time to do it in. The baby's going to be here in a 4 or 5 more weeks.

We have BC Plumbing coming. They're also going to quote us on how much it'd cost to switch all the gas lines over to that CSST stuff. If it's too much, I might start another thread asking for help on that. If it was just one line, that'd be something, but a whole house, I'd need some guidance on that.

 

I plan on doing most of the repairs myself. I already did a few repairs myself! I installed a new faucet, I put a new shower head in and it didn't leak, I put a screen in the bathroom sink, and then down in the basement, I removed the water mixer / duo-cloz (whatever it's called). The old one was soldered to the copper lines and it leaked. Also, one of the washer lines (the hot one) was very old and rusted on. I couldn't get it off, so I took a pipe cutter and slowly cut both lines and put in new shutoff valves and used those shark bites. Works fine now! It feels real good when I finish something and it works the way it's supposed to!

 

So we looked at the Muskoka flooring and my wife likes these:

Smoth Gallery Collection:
Umber - Hickory
Sumac - Hickory
Bronze - Hard Maple

Architectural Collection:
Bronze - Maple

Northern Solid Sawn:
Bronze - Maple

Honestly, with me, I cannot see a difference at all between the various Bronze Maples. I think they're all the same, just different ways they make the wood flooring. According to their site though, the nearest dealer is roughly 75 miles away. I wonder if they'd send us some free sample pieces to look at in real life.

I really appreciate all the information everyone has shared with me so far. You guys have provided a wealth of information! Thank you!!!!

 

Manufacturers will usually send samples.....give them a call. Check the dealer's prices and also check on-line sellers. There is a company in MA that carries Muskoka as well as other brands.....company is Hosking Hardwood Flooring....family business. I have bought from them and do not work for them. They have a couple of retail locations and also sell on-line and via the telephone.
Also, other tools that may come in handy for the project are a router for adding grooves or tongues to floor boards, a pneumatic stapler for securing the vapor retarder.

 

So, for the pneumatic flooring nailer, we were thinking of this Bostitch one. What do you guys think?

Shop Bostitch Staples Flooring Pneumatic Nailer at Lowes.com

I watched the video here:

How to Install a Hardwood Floor | how-tos | DIY

And that's why I thought I needed one of those pin nailers. I guess I don't really understand the spline yet and still have to read more. From the video, it didn't look like splines were used to change the direction of the flooring, just to allow the various pieces of hardwood to "lock" together. Around 2:15 is where they start using the pin nailer.

Is this the correct type of finishing nailer that I'd want?

Shop Bostitch Roundhead Finishing Pneumatic Nailer at Lowes.com

It's a Bostitch pneumatic roundhead finishing nailer, 15 ga. It says: Drives 15 GA "DA" style angle finish nails from 1-1/4-in to 2-1/2-in length

Does that sound about right?

 

The nailer they are using in the video is a finish nailer...looks like 15 gauge. A pin nailer drives a 23 gauge pin which is a whole lot smaller. The terminology used in the video is not 100% correct.
The 2 Bostich tools you listed are what you want....real nice tools. If cost is a consideration there are less expensive tools available that will do the job.
One other thing the video showed them putting down Red Roisin paper and referred to it as a Vapor barrier. It is not a vapor barrier. You want to use something like Aquabar B or even roofing felt. Aquabar B is real nice to work with....has kraft paper on both sides and asphalt in the middle. Also, doesn't hurt to glue the spline into the groove of the floor boards. And when you do use a spline take a couple of pieces of scrap flooring and put their grooves over the spline to hold it parallel to the floor while you nail it....this way the actual floor boards that will installed over it will have a nice fit. There seemed to be plenty of room to use the flooring nailer instead of the finish nailer.

 

Jimmiem,

When it comes time to lay the floor, I'll be back and maybe go over it one more time, just to make sure I got it correct.

So, I lifted up the carpet in the baby's bedroom to see what was under it. I can actually see the joists and a gas line (that isn't used anymore) being ran. There's this weird cloth type thing. It looks kinda like a wool blanket. I don't know what it's called, but a lot of carpets seem to have it under there. Then, directly under the cloth like material, there's an old hardwood floor. 3 1/2 inch wide, 3/4" thick. Under that, there's just the joists. So, it looks like I will more than likely be pulling that old hardwood out and just laying down 3/4" plywood.

The old hardwood is in horrible shape. There's pieces that are cracked, it's all warped like this: ~

I'm just gonna rip it up and put down the plywood. When I called CBC (Corning Building Company), I told them I needed 3/4" thick 4 foot by 8 foot plywood to lay down a subfloor to put hardwood flooring down. They transferred me to someone who was supposed to be more knowledgeable and they said I'd want something called L.P. Tongue and Groove plywood. They said it was 21.95$ a sheet. That seems really cheap for 3/4" 4 foot by 8 foot sheets. Is she correct? Do I want L.P. Tongue and Groove plywood? I was thinking maybe the stuff she was talking about wasn't 4 foot by 8 foot...

 

I just checked lowes.com and their T&G plywood is close to the same price.

I don't know if they still sell that type of padding but it is a superior carper pad.

Can you tell if it was ever finished? or is it just a good subfloor.

 

Is it the carpet pad? Can you post pictures? Yes, you want 3/4" 4 X 8 sheets of t&G plywood subfloor. What is the flooring under the carpet? Really consider getting Charles Peterson's book.....it'll give you a good understanding of the whys in addition to the whats and how tos.
When you do the subfloor follow the manufacturer's installation instructions especially concerning spacing to avoid joint rubbing which will cause squeaks. Also, consider using screws instead of nails.....nails can be the source of squeaks down the road.
We'll be here....keep us updated.

 

Near the end, where the molding / trim normally is, it's not finished, but where that rug pad is or whatever it's called, it appears that it's been painted this nasty brown colour. We do not want to refinish it. We want to replace it with new stuff. Being our house now, we don't really mind spending the money and getting something real nice, something that we picked out ourselves and installed ourselves. I think it'd make it feel a lot more like our perfect house when we finish. Eventually, we want to put matching hardwood in every room. We want to do the whole house. Hopefully, we can do the bathrooms too. Not sure how hardwood would hold up in a bathroom with the moisture from the showers though.

Also, the basement is a full basement but the cement flooring is all messed up. The basement needs a good bit of work too, but baby's room comes first. Then we'll do the rest of the house. The basement will probably be the very last thing we do.

 

Could you please post a link to the 3/4" T&G 4 foot by 8 foot plywood at Lowes.com? I can't seem to find it. I've searched lowes for T&G Plywood and just Plywood (but picked Floors for the "For Use With" category)

My wife is going to pick up the Charles Peterson's Wood Flooring: A Complete Guide to Layout, Installation & Finishing book from Barnes and Nobles when she gets out of work today. It's 45$ for a hard copy.

I'm going to try and find the USB cable for the camcorder so I can post pictures. It's in a box somewheres around here, we're still unpacking.

 

Shop Plytanium 23/32 CAT PS1-09 Tongue and Groove Pine Plywood Subfloor, Application as 4 x 8 at Lowes.com

 

Thanks marksr. Is the 23/32 thick enough though? The one video that I watched, which seems to be not the best source for information (using the incorrect terminology for example) says 3/4" is required. Someone said 5/8" is acceptable for the subfloor. 3/4 would be 24/32, 5/8's would be 20/32. So 23/32 is a little thinner than 3/4" but a little thicker than 5/8", right? Sounds like it'd work perfectly...

I was up at my parents and my father loaned me a pancake air compressor but he said it wouldn't be the best for the job because it'd constantly have to charge up. But he also gave me a nailer. It's made by Campbell Hausfeld. It's a 2" 2-in-1 nailer / stapler. It's model number is SB504000 and it's 18 gauge.

Unfortunately, I remember someone saying 18 gauge is too small, so it looks like I'll still be purchasing the Bostitch products. I wonder what I could use this 18 gauge nailer / stapler for though, in the future.

 

Air guns use very little CFM as you pull the trigger and let go, unlike a paint gun, grinder, impact wrench. While my compressors are bigger I've been on a lot of jobs where the trim carpenter used a pancake compressor.

I'm not sure you can buy a full 3/4" sheet of plywood other than cabinet grade. 5/8" plywood is normally only 19/32" It's been that way for a long time.

 

No hardwood in the bathrooms. Hardwood not a great idea for kitchens....but people do it. Once the floor is down you can buy baseboard molding and install yourself. The 18 gauge will come in handy for light trim work......things too delicate for a 15 gauge. You'll be fine with the pancake compressor. When it needs to refill you will hear the compressor motor start....doesn't take long and then you can resume nailing. You don't mention what type but some are quite loud and you should definitely use hearing protection. Not sure if your wife and new baby will be fans of the noise. What helps is to get a long hose so that you can put the compressor in the basement or far end of the house or even outdoors. Once the compressor is turned on and the pressure requirement is set you won't have to go near it until quittin' time. 5/8" plywood subfloor is acceptable per the NWFA (National Wood Flooring Association) guidelines.....but use the 3/4" and as MARKSR said it will be a bit less than 3/4".
Have to admire your ambition with a new baby on the way!!!!!

 

Thanks guys! Sorry for the long delays in responding. Because the baby is almost here, I'm trying to get a billion things done because I have a feeling I won't have a lot of free time afterwards! Still putting away boxes and looking for that dang mini-USB cable for the camera. I got my wife helping now. I have to be at a class in another 30 minutes or so. Tomorrow, the plumber comes. After that, hopefully I'll have some time to read the various stuff. We have the book now by the Charles Peterson guy. I'll probably read the NWFA first and then start the Charles Peterson book.

We're thinking of ripping the carpet and subfloor up in the baby's room and putting down the plywood. If we don't have enough money left over after the plumbers come to buy the hardwood, we could at least through an area rug over the plywood so the baby doesn't have to smell the pee. And then when we save up the cash for the tools / hardwood / supplies / etc, we'll just remove the area rug and go from there.

I'm thinking real hard about doing one of those 45 degree angle things with the hardwood flooring. I think that'd look real nice. It'd be a bit more work but if I can pull it off, I'm sure it'd look beautiful.

 

A 45 degree angle install will look nice....it'll take more wood and more time to install but it'll be worth it.

 

Just be sure to apply a liberal coat of solvent based primer over the affected plywood first! Covering the urine soaked plywood with new plywood or rug won't eliminate the odor.

 

Here are the pictures that I had promised you guys.

We had BC Plumbing come today to give us a quote for stuff. It wasn't good. Just to hook the dryer up to the current soft copper is 200$. The guy says the CSST is very expensive and suggests we use the currently unhooked rusted black pipe that's down there. It runs upstairs and he suggests we unhook it from upstairs and he can just hook it back up and run new black pipe to everything else.

I'm very tempted to start a new topic here on this site and ask for help doing the CSST myself. Now that we live in the city, we need the code inspector to come out and look at everything when we're done. I know how I want the CSST ran, just not sure how to branch off it, etc. The 7,000$ will be gone and we're still going to need 4,000$ - 5,000$ more. He's going to give me a right up sometime next week with it all broken down and we can pick what we want done and when. He said maybe we can get the new furnace in and the A-Coil for the AC and the new gas lines and then maybe next year, get the new ducts ran, and the year afterwards, get the outside unit for the AC or something. It'd be nice if I could do some of it myself....like the gaslines alone. I bet for what he's charging to do the black pipe, I could do it myself with the CSST.

 

Also, it's a little hard to tell from the pics there, but that old hardwood, if that's what it is, that's all there is woodwise under the carpet. Where the tack strip is in the pic, below that, it's the same wood that's in the top of the pic, just painted or something. It's not plywood or anything like that.

 

That isn't the old timey wool padding I was expecting to see, I believe that type of carpet pad is call rebond.

Most work around a house can be diy, especially if you have the time, motivation and a little guidance.

 

Gas dryer? I'd leave gas line work to the pros. If the gas dryer hookup is big $ how about an electric dryer?

 

JIMMIEM,

We want to stick with the gas dryer, but if you think it's best to leave it to the pros, we'll do that then. It didn't look real hard, installing that Corrugated Stainless Steel Tubing. I know there's multiple companies who make it and quality seems to very from manufacturer to manufacturer. I think Pro-Flex was a company I heard a few times. Currently, because the house was once a multi-family home, the current gas lines are a freaking mess. The plumbing guy said he'd just use the old line that isn't hooked up right now, that runs upstairs, and unhook it from upstairs and just hook it up to the meter and then pipe off of it.

This is how it will look when it's done. The equipment (furnace, etc) is laid out in real life as it is in this simple diagram I drew. It's pretty much a straight line with the equipment, and we just wanted to run a brand new CSST to the stuff and do away with that black iron. It is soooooo rusted!

|--dryer
|
|---line that goes up to the stove
|
|---furnace-----hot water tank
|
|
|
|
Meter

The plumber thinks it'll be fine though to use it and highly suggests the black iron because of how expensive the CSST is. He said if we needed the dryer hooked up to the old soft copper, it'd cost 200$! It's just a 25 foot run of soft copper from the black iron. And we need maybe 10 feet to go from that soft copper to the dryer. I thought that was very, very expensive. And, if we do that, then, he'd remove it and reuse the pipes to run it the other way once he redoes it all. He said to hook up the dryer, we're looking at 100$ for labor and 100$ for the parts. I thought that was very very high. Maybe I misunderstood him and the 200$ was for the whole job? If so, that'd definitely be better!