Stone River Hardwood Co
#1
09-08-01, 08:39 AM
I was wondering if anyone out there has had any experience with the Stone River Hardwood company in Kentucky? We will be ordering our wood from them (unless there are horror stories posted here).
The prices were really really cheap. We're getting 3"-wide pre-finished maple (builder's grade) for $2.99/sq. ft.
The price is so good it worries me. Any comments? Is there anything special I should be asking them before I order?
Paul
p.s. - the samples they sent us looked fine, but what can you tell from small pieces?
The prices were really really cheap. We're getting 3"-wide pre-finished maple (builder's grade) for $2.99/sq. ft.
The price is so good it worries me. Any comments? Is there anything special I should be asking them before I order?
Paul
p.s. - the samples they sent us looked fine, but what can you tell from small pieces?
#2
09-08-01, 04:45 PM
I don't know anything about Stone River Hardwood, but ask them for their references. Call them. Ask the sales staff if they've installed this wood anywhere. Ask the salesman to make an appointment for you to go see the wood.
I'd ask for a copy of the manufacturer's warranty. A copy of which will be in each carton. When you get the wood, open a box and ensure the warranty you got is the same as what is in each box.
As for builder's grade, I've never heard of a builder's grade maple except in longstrip. And longstrip doesn't come in three inch widths. You may be looking at tavern or cabin grade maple in which case the price is fine. These designations are what hardwood manufacturers use when they realize they have a problem on their production line. A nozzle may have had a problem and the finish was misapplied or the wrong grade of wood was allowed on a particular line. It is easier and cheaper for manufacturers to allow everything to continue rather than stopping the line and culling out the bad wood. This wood is boxed and classified as tavern or cabin grade. This means some boxes may have bad wood in them. Just cull it out. You may have to have a larger waste factor than the normal 5%, but you may have a heck of a deal.
Open each box. Take out a few pieces from each box. Ensure you have enough good wood. If in doubt, get a couple of extra boxes. You're only looking at another $200 to ensure you do have enough. There is nothing worse than getting to the last few runs and realizing you're short. That wood may not be available anymore.
Leighsah
I'd ask for a copy of the manufacturer's warranty. A copy of which will be in each carton. When you get the wood, open a box and ensure the warranty you got is the same as what is in each box.
As for builder's grade, I've never heard of a builder's grade maple except in longstrip. And longstrip doesn't come in three inch widths. You may be looking at tavern or cabin grade maple in which case the price is fine. These designations are what hardwood manufacturers use when they realize they have a problem on their production line. A nozzle may have had a problem and the finish was misapplied or the wrong grade of wood was allowed on a particular line. It is easier and cheaper for manufacturers to allow everything to continue rather than stopping the line and culling out the bad wood. This wood is boxed and classified as tavern or cabin grade. This means some boxes may have bad wood in them. Just cull it out. You may have to have a larger waste factor than the normal 5%, but you may have a heck of a deal.
Open each box. Take out a few pieces from each box. Ensure you have enough good wood. If in doubt, get a couple of extra boxes. You're only looking at another $200 to ensure you do have enough. There is nothing worse than getting to the last few runs and realizing you're short. That wood may not be available anymore.
Leighsah
#3
09-08-01, 07:33 PM
Member
Hardwood flooring
What is the finish warranty? What is the quality of the milling? If you are purchasing an unfinished product, calculate the cost of your flooring plus installation and refinishing. There is no way you can achieve a quality finish with a warranty on raw wood. Add up costs of flooring, plus installation, plus finishing. The DIY finisher warranties are as good as long as the truck is in your driveway. A prefinished hardwood flooring product with a 25 year finish product is your best bet.
Please advise what option you decide.
http://www.twelvepole.com
Please advise what option you decide.
http://www.twelvepole.com
#4
09-09-01, 01:49 AM
TwelvePole...
I disagree strongly with your statement that
There are plenty of folks out here who can do just that. Take a look at the HardRock Cafe here in Orlando, Emeril's restaurant also in Orlando, the first half dozen Panera Bread stores to name a few. (They've since switched to a prefinished product because of the time schedule required for installing solid and then finishing versus the prefinished which is done in three days.) Each has site finished wood. Gosh knows they get plenty of traffic.
As for your suggestion that
is a real slam on those of us in the business who sell, install and finish both prefinished and unfinished products. Just because TwelvePole chooses to sell only prefinished, don't slam the rest of us. Our reputation is excellent and we work extremely hard to maintain that.
As for your 25-year prefinished product, I'm sure it's very good, but not for every application. I doubt that 25-year finish warranty is transferable. If a homeowner isn't going to be in the house for 25 years, then why sell them that? There are quite a few manufacturers whose middle line series has the identical finish as their top of the line product, but the top of the line finish has a 25-year warranty and the middle of the line product has a 10 or 15 year warranty. The consumer is only paying for the warranty. If they choose to purchase the top of the line after having this explained, more power to them. But if they're not going to stay in the house for more than seven years, then why pay for the extra warranty they will never benefit from?
I worked for a company who believed strongly in repeat business and customer referrals. When that aquarium leaked, we wanted to get that call to come fix it. When the A/C drip pan overflowed, we wanted the call. When we installed wood in a customers home, we proudly installed a sign in the front yard so the neighbors would know who to come to when they were ready for hardwood.
Please don't slam those of us whose business plan includes unfinished as well as prefinished because your company chose not to go that way.
Leighsah
there is no way you can achieve a quality finish with a warranty on raw wood.
As for your suggestion that
... DIY finisher warranties are as good as long as the truck is in your driveway.
As for your 25-year prefinished product, I'm sure it's very good, but not for every application. I doubt that 25-year finish warranty is transferable. If a homeowner isn't going to be in the house for 25 years, then why sell them that? There are quite a few manufacturers whose middle line series has the identical finish as their top of the line product, but the top of the line finish has a 25-year warranty and the middle of the line product has a 10 or 15 year warranty. The consumer is only paying for the warranty. If they choose to purchase the top of the line after having this explained, more power to them. But if they're not going to stay in the house for more than seven years, then why pay for the extra warranty they will never benefit from?
I worked for a company who believed strongly in repeat business and customer referrals. When that aquarium leaked, we wanted to get that call to come fix it. When the A/C drip pan overflowed, we wanted the call. When we installed wood in a customers home, we proudly installed a sign in the front yard so the neighbors would know who to come to when they were ready for hardwood.
Please don't slam those of us whose business plan includes unfinished as well as prefinished because your company chose not to go that way.
Leighsah
#5
09-09-01, 03:57 AM
Stone River
Thanks to both of you for your replies and opininons.
The webpage for the company is at http://www.stoneriverhardwoods.com/
The definitions of their grades are as follows:
Prefinished Grade Comparison
Sealed open pore to define grain for a nice and more natural appearance.
Premium The highest grade available from our stock. Basically free from natural defects within 5 to 9 percent tolerance.
Common Selected Grainy stock with light character in the form of burls, small mostly solid knots and variation in grain pattern. Selected is still a very high quality grade.
Building Grade Consists of natural defects in the 20% to 30% range. A sound stock for those in a country or wooded rustic character. A largely sought after grade. Please inquire for availability.
Please keep in mind that grade comparisons vary dramatically. We will be glad to explain our Wood grades and send you Samples for a hands on look at our flooring.
As for finish, this is what they say:
*4 step coating finish
*3 mils thickness
Compare to 1 to 1.5 mil in the market
UV finish is the toughest ultraviolet cured wood finish known today.
Finish Gloss is gauged in numbers 1 to 100....100 being the highest.
Stone River Hardwoods use a 60.
There is no warranty information on the site, but I emailed them and asked for it just now.
Also, since they are in KY and I'm in WI, it will be impossible for me to see anything other than the samples they sent me. But they did provide references that I will call.
So, does this change anything?
Thanks again. This is a great board!
Paul
The webpage for the company is at http://www.stoneriverhardwoods.com/
The definitions of their grades are as follows:
Prefinished Grade Comparison
Sealed open pore to define grain for a nice and more natural appearance.
Premium The highest grade available from our stock. Basically free from natural defects within 5 to 9 percent tolerance.
Common Selected Grainy stock with light character in the form of burls, small mostly solid knots and variation in grain pattern. Selected is still a very high quality grade.
Building Grade Consists of natural defects in the 20% to 30% range. A sound stock for those in a country or wooded rustic character. A largely sought after grade. Please inquire for availability.
Please keep in mind that grade comparisons vary dramatically. We will be glad to explain our Wood grades and send you Samples for a hands on look at our flooring.
As for finish, this is what they say:
*4 step coating finish
*3 mils thickness
Compare to 1 to 1.5 mil in the market
UV finish is the toughest ultraviolet cured wood finish known today.
Finish Gloss is gauged in numbers 1 to 100....100 being the highest.
Stone River Hardwoods use a 60.
There is no warranty information on the site, but I emailed them and asked for it just now.
Also, since they are in KY and I'm in WI, it will be impossible for me to see anything other than the samples they sent me. But they did provide references that I will call.
So, does this change anything?
Thanks again. This is a great board!
Paul
#6
09-09-01, 04:17 AM
Member
Finishing raw wood
I did not mean to make it sound the way it did. Please accept my apology. What I meant was that it is impossible to achieve the same level of quality in finish when comparing finishes applied in the home vs the better finishes by prefinished flooring manufacturers. In addition to the ease of installation without having to sand and finish, the 25-year finish warranty products are extremely hard and scratch resistant. Some of these products have 4 or more coats of polyurethance sandwiched between layers of aluminum oxide. Each coat oven baked. I have never known a floor finisher who offered any type of finish warranty, certainly not a 15 or 25 year one.
#7
09-09-01, 04:47 AM
TwelvePole,
Apology accepted
We had a one year workmanship warranty on any site finished product. Though if there were two adults in the house (meaning light wear) and the finish was wearing two years after installation, then we'd go out and take a look. Maybe there was something wrong with the finish. If they were nice customers and we had had some referals from them, we'd screen and recoat their floor.
Factory finishes are always going to be more dependable than site finished becuse you can control the environment.
Leighsah
Apology accepted
We had a one year workmanship warranty on any site finished product. Though if there were two adults in the house (meaning light wear) and the finish was wearing two years after installation, then we'd go out and take a look. Maybe there was something wrong with the finish. If they were nice customers and we had had some referals from them, we'd screen and recoat their floor.
Factory finishes are always going to be more dependable than site finished becuse you can control the environment.
Leighsah
#8
09-09-01, 05:12 AM
Pnewman
I didn't see any mention of aluminum oxide as the finish. UV cured is a method of curing, not the finish itself. I'd get clarification of this. Aluminum oxide has become the standard in the last 8 to 10 years. It is very durable and has enabled the manufacturers to offer these incredible, though very limiting (read the fine print regarding maintenance, cleaning products, adhesives, vapor barriers, etc.) warranties.
The urethane finish isn't bad, just not as durable. As TwelvePole mentioned, look carefully at the milling. I don't know of anyone manufacturing in US who doesn't use an aluminum oxide finish. If this was milled overseas, sometimes the milling is questionable. If this is the case, the tongue and groove don't fit together correctly because the tolerances are not as exact as those used here in the States.
Also understand the grade. You are going to have a very rustic look. There's nothing wrong with this, but know you will have significant mineral streaks and knots. The web site doesn't say anything about open knots, but I'd imagine this is also allowable. I personally happen to LOVE this look. (I have pecan flooring which has lots of character naturally.)
This distressed (lots of character) wood is becoming increasingly popular. I know wormy maple solid is going in at about $12 p/ SF. I think your floor is going to look fabulous.
Leighsah
The urethane finish isn't bad, just not as durable. As TwelvePole mentioned, look carefully at the milling. I don't know of anyone manufacturing in US who doesn't use an aluminum oxide finish. If this was milled overseas, sometimes the milling is questionable. If this is the case, the tongue and groove don't fit together correctly because the tolerances are not as exact as those used here in the States.
Also understand the grade. You are going to have a very rustic look. There's nothing wrong with this, but know you will have significant mineral streaks and knots. The web site doesn't say anything about open knots, but I'd imagine this is also allowable. I personally happen to LOVE this look. (I have pecan flooring which has lots of character naturally.)
This distressed (lots of character) wood is becoming increasingly popular. I know wormy maple solid is going in at about $12 p/ SF. I think your floor is going to look fabulous.
Leighsah
#9
09-09-01, 07:53 AM
Member
Hardwood flooring
"Rustic grades" tend to be off fall products, meaning they are pieces of wood that have been chopped or sorted out of the mill run because of knots, mineral, defects. These products don't have a finish warranty and have limited availability and are sold "as is." They require a higher waste factor because there will tend to be pieces that you won't want to use. The least attractive pieces can be installed in closets or other inconspicuous places. This wood is very desirable to some folks because of the knots and mineral and because of the low price point. "Tavern grade" tends to be a mix of random length boards. "Cabin grade" tends to be mostly shorts and often times has more knots, minerals, worm holes, and defects.
Because of the high demand for the rustic grades, some manufacturers have started to manufacture a grade of flooring from 2 Common wood, meaning it has sound knots and mineral. It tends not to have as many coats of finish and not as much aluminum oxide, if any, and is a random length product. And, this grade of flooring tends not to have a warranty.
Products made from select and better grades can be found in a variety finish qualities, warranties, and price points. The idea behind going with the best warranty product (25 years) is that anything less may not serve you well. When a manufacturer offers a 3 yr, 15 yr, and 25 yr range of warranties, it would seem reasonable to conclude that the 3 yr warranty finish will not wear as well as the 15 or 25. When comparing the 15 yr and 25 yr warranties, if all factors are equal (same width, same species, same finish) except the price, then it would be reasonable to ask why.
Consumers can get confused very quickly when comparing manufacturer's wood products because of the different nomenclature. "Builder's Grade" can mean different things: a product favored by builders, a product manufactured from 2 common (great for knots and mineral). It may or may not have a finish warranty.
I personally love knots and mineral. 2 common maple, IMO, is prettier than the select and better because of all the wonderful characteristics. At $2.99 SF for 3" plank, I think if the finish wore off in 3-5 years, with your savings on the wood alone you could afford to fly Leighsay out to supervise the refinishing. First quality maple plank in our area is $5.00 - $7.00 SF. Folks tell me in some of the northeastern states that it is almost twice.
Keep us posted on your decision. Check back in when you get ready to install. Make sure you've addressed all moisture and ventilation issues prior to installation. Install polypropylene moisture barrier in crawl space if you have one. HVAC running. Set boxes of wood in area to be installed for several days to let the wood acclimate to temperature and humidity. Use felt barrier beneath wood over subfloor.
Enjoy your new floor!
Because of the high demand for the rustic grades, some manufacturers have started to manufacture a grade of flooring from 2 Common wood, meaning it has sound knots and mineral. It tends not to have as many coats of finish and not as much aluminum oxide, if any, and is a random length product. And, this grade of flooring tends not to have a warranty.
Products made from select and better grades can be found in a variety finish qualities, warranties, and price points. The idea behind going with the best warranty product (25 years) is that anything less may not serve you well. When a manufacturer offers a 3 yr, 15 yr, and 25 yr range of warranties, it would seem reasonable to conclude that the 3 yr warranty finish will not wear as well as the 15 or 25. When comparing the 15 yr and 25 yr warranties, if all factors are equal (same width, same species, same finish) except the price, then it would be reasonable to ask why.
Consumers can get confused very quickly when comparing manufacturer's wood products because of the different nomenclature. "Builder's Grade" can mean different things: a product favored by builders, a product manufactured from 2 common (great for knots and mineral). It may or may not have a finish warranty.
I personally love knots and mineral. 2 common maple, IMO, is prettier than the select and better because of all the wonderful characteristics. At $2.99 SF for 3" plank, I think if the finish wore off in 3-5 years, with your savings on the wood alone you could afford to fly Leighsay out to supervise the refinishing. First quality maple plank in our area is $5.00 - $7.00 SF. Folks tell me in some of the northeastern states that it is almost twice.
Keep us posted on your decision. Check back in when you get ready to install. Make sure you've addressed all moisture and ventilation issues prior to installation. Install polypropylene moisture barrier in crawl space if you have one. HVAC running. Set boxes of wood in area to be installed for several days to let the wood acclimate to temperature and humidity. Use felt barrier beneath wood over subfloor.
Enjoy your new floor!
#10
09-10-01, 08:15 AM
more Stone River info
I called Stone River today. They were vague about their warranty, but are supposed to fax me a copy. They said it's for 10 years and covers things like manufacturers defects, moisture content between 6%-8%, grading specs of not more than 70% 'imperfections' like knots, minerals, etc. They claim it's about the same warranty offered by large companies such as Bruce.
As for finish, they use polyurethane. They said it's mixed with Aluminum oxide and milled to 4 mils. Claim its about the same as other companies. They also told me I should only order 5%-6% extra for waste. Though he said that there might be some knots in the 'builder's grade' and that there may be spots where the knot would maybe have a spot where the finish would be indented, he didn't seem to say that there would be any open knots. So I'm not sure if this is the same as Tavern grade.
Also, he said the wood is all milled in Kentucky.
Well, what do you guys think???
Thanks a TON!
Paul
As for finish, they use polyurethane. They said it's mixed with Aluminum oxide and milled to 4 mils. Claim its about the same as other companies. They also told me I should only order 5%-6% extra for waste. Though he said that there might be some knots in the 'builder's grade' and that there may be spots where the knot would maybe have a spot where the finish would be indented, he didn't seem to say that there would be any open knots. So I'm not sure if this is the same as Tavern grade.
Also, he said the wood is all milled in Kentucky.
Well, what do you guys think???
Thanks a TON!
Paul
#11
09-10-01, 10:29 AM
It's Nice to se some great Info
Welcome Leigh:
It's always nice to have someone such as yourself, and Patricia to chip in on these hardwood questions. You guys have out done yourself in explaining what most people have no idea of. I've been here, off and on for three years and find it great that you'll spend the time.
We get many repititous questions so hang in there
It's always nice to have someone such as yourself, and Patricia to chip in on these hardwood questions. You guys have out done yourself in explaining what most people have no idea of. I've been here, off and on for three years and find it great that you'll spend the time.
We get many repititous questions so hang in there
