Prestidge Wiring Help


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Old 03-03-14, 07:50 PM
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Prestidge Wiring Help

Need Help with wiring from EIM to equipment and programming options for the thermostat setup.

Thermostat and Accessories:
Redesigned Prestige IAQ Kit WITH Equipment Interface Module, Outdoor Air Sensor, 2 Duct Sensors , Redilink Gateway

Models: YTHX9421R5101 and THM6000R1002

Heating and Cooling Equipment:
York YHJF30S41S1 Heat Pump with York AVH36C3XH21C Air Handler with 10kw Electric Heat w/ Circuit Breaker installed

Oil Fired Hot Water baseboard heat (this is activated by 2 wire dry contact to aquastat)



Stage 1 Heat and Single Stage Cooling . Heat Pump Only

Stage 2. Oil Fired Boiler for hot Water base board heat.

Stage 3 . Electric Heater in Heat Pump Air Handler.

What I would like to accomplish is to use the heat pump for heat until the outdoor temperature makes it no longer efficient (Lockout outside temp using wireless outdoor sensor) then at that point use the hot water baseboard to heat the house.

For Stage 3(emergency heat) I would like to use the electric heat in the heat pump air handler. (Manual switch to if wanted for some reason also or when reach lo preset lo temp maybe 50 degrees)
 
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Old 03-03-14, 08:17 PM
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Some specialized equipment, wiring and programming. Hang tight.... Jay or Houston, the forum pros, can help you with that.
 
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Old 03-03-14, 08:38 PM
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That will be great.
My HVAC guy is good and he knows his stuff but this is way over his head. His suggestion was 2 thermostats one for the heat pump and one for the hot water baseboard. when it gets real cold outside turn off the heat pump and turn on the baseboard. With the variety of heating in homes and technology I know there is a better way and the thermostat and equipment can do it, just need help on hooking it up.
 
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Old 03-03-14, 08:41 PM
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https://customer.honeywell.com/resou...0s/68-0311.pdf

Refer to page 144 if your radiant heat has its own transformer and you only need dry contacts.
So your boiler connects to the two U1 terminals

Page 141 is if your stat supplies power to the boiler relay. ( This is what I thought you had since a single stat controlled your boiler and air conditioner with the old setup)
Jumper R to U1 and connect the second U1 terminal to your boiler relay. Connect the other side of the boiler relay coil to C.

I cannot post pictures until after the 5th because of a bandwidth limit at Photobucket.
 
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Old 03-03-14, 09:16 PM
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The radient heat does have its own transformer (I guess) I checked the wires with volt meter and there is no voltage on the wires going into the old thermostat and if I jumper them oil boiler comes on.

Will the setup on page 144 make the electric heat strip come on only as a stage 3 (last resort) heat since there are wires going to the air handler - EIM aux 1 to AH W1 and EIM Aux 2 to AH W2?


In the York Typical Field Wiring this is what is listed for the heat pump. I know that instead of wiring into thermostat I will be going to EIM. What other changes and wires to hookup?


Thermo AH HP

R----------R----------R
B or C-----C----------C
Y-----------Y----------Y
O----------O----------O
W----------W2--------W
L or X-----------------X/L
G----------G
W1--------W1/66
BK--------------------goes to red on AH (with I think a relay in-line?)
T
E-----------------------------------goes to W on Thermostat(Field installed Jumper)

* For the BK on AH it says Dehumidification control connection - Humidistat Jumper must be removed [Can the thermostat be setup to do this?]
* For E on Thermo it says Jumper terminals E and W to heat on first stage during emergency heat.
* For T on Thermo it says Terminal not used on all thermostats
 
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Old 03-03-14, 09:55 PM
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I'm have trouble finding that york air handler manual. I don't see a Bk terminal on the other York manuals that I have found, but yes, you can jumper R to U2 and connect the other U2 terminal to Bk for reduced blower speed on demand for dehumidification with air handlers that support this.
This will need to be entered into the stat when configuring.

Most manuals have an identification number in small print on the bottom of the first page and last page. If you post this number I may be able to find your air handler manual.

When you configure the thermostat to match your system, you should be able to set the stage 2 heat as your U1 terminals to control radiant heat and stage 3 heat as the heat strips as Aux or U3.(ISU 2100)
Seems like tech support has verified this already.
I'd setup Aux for the heat strips before trying U3. (ISU 2020)

The wording on ISU 2030 makes me wonder if radiant heat will come up as an option if we set ISU 2010 to air to air heat pump.
 
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Old 03-03-14, 10:04 PM
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What I saw actually came from the Unitary Sales Tool but here is a link to the same thing online http://www.upgnet.com/PdfFileRedirec...YTG-B-0410.pdf (page 12)

I do not have the equipment yet, it is scheduled to be delivered on Wednesday when it comes in I will grab the manual from it.

To find it online I had to search for York ahv36c3xh
 
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Old 03-04-14, 07:06 PM
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I went to the local hvac distributor and picked up a 24 volt transformer so I can power the thermostat and check the outputs on a bench without actually hooking up (or damaging) any of the expensive HVAC equipment. I am going to start trying that tomorrow when the thermostat arrives but would still appreciate any wiring and programming help.
 
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Old 03-05-14, 03:01 PM
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Ok so here are the book numbers
835961-uim-d-0213 for outdoor unit and
1060253-uim-a-0713 for the air handler


on a side note this 2.5 ton heat pump is much much larger then my old 2 ton A/c unit
 
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Old 03-05-14, 07:46 PM
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I'd wire as shown in this diagram. The question is will Radiant Heat show as an option if we configure for air to air heat pump.

 
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Old 03-06-14, 12:25 PM
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Ok update what I figured out so far...

1st issue this thermostat will not let you set each stage of backup heat as a separate type.
2nd You can only use the U1 U 2 and U3 as relays for heating stages under the heat pump equipment type if you set it as a geothermal system. Which would be fine except it then uses the "u" contacts as stage 1 and or 2 then heat pump compressor then electric backup heat.

Work around found set thermostat to heat pump air to air with 2 stages of backup. Set Backup heat type as oil Forced Air (only way to use as dual fuel with thermostat control fossil fuel kit) and compressor/balance lockout at 40 degrees.

Stage 1 heat pump normal wiring
Stage 2 Oil Fired Hot water based board hooked to aux 1 of thermostat has to be run through isolation relay to take the 24vac and make it dry contacts )
Stage 3 Electric Heat of heat pump hooked to aux 2 of thermostat (with a staging differential set of 15.5 degrees so it only comes on as emergency)

Here are my questions/issues-
1. Where does the Aux 2 (electric heat) wire get hooked to in the air handler/compressor? Is it the W wire as it appears in the diagram

2. I can either set the thermostat to control the fan with the backup heat or I can set in the thermostat for the equipment to control the fan with the backup heat. Don't want fan to run with hot water baseboard but need it to run with electric.
-Does the air handler turn its fan on automatically when the electric heat is on?
-If Air handler does not I need to be able to turn fan on with it, I was thinking just run a jumper from Aux 2 to G but then realized everytime fan comes on (manual fan, heat pump heat or cooling) it will energize the Aux 2 contact (and make the electric heat come on)?? Another relay or ??Diode??? to keep that from happening
 
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Old 03-06-14, 05:42 PM
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http://www.expressoverstock.com/pdfs/York/AHV_IG.pdf

with York AVH36C3XH21C Air Handler with 10kw Electric Heat
I can't find a York AVH manual. Could you have meant a York AHV ?

If this is the case it looks like the 9.6KW Nominal heat strip are energized as a single stage so I'd wire the EIM W3 to the air handler W1.

http://www.upgnet.com/pdffileredirec...uai-f-0213.pdf
While I haven't seen an air handler with a variable speed blower that requires 24 volts on G to energize the fan with a heating demand in a long time, This is all I see to indicate that the air handler will energize the blower with a heating demand on W1 with no mention of a 24 volt signal on G.

To Set Electric W1 Heat Airflow:
The blower speed required for 1st st
age electric heat is different than
cooling. Refer to Table 14 or 15 for the possible CFM selections. Refer
to Table10 for the minimum required airflow for the electric heater
installed. Find the desired airflow in Table 14 or 15 for low heat. Set the
HEAT jumper on the control as
indicated in Table 14 or 15.
I would use a clamp type amperage meter to verify that the blower is energized with the electric heat strips.
 
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Old 03-06-14, 10:23 PM
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Yes I apologize for the typo it is an AHV36C. Ok I was wondering if the heater kicked the fan on all by itself when energized. So I guess I do not have to worry with jumping the G line then.
 
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Old 03-07-14, 04:20 PM
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So I called and spoke with York today after being on hold for a bit the guy said "your thermostat should enrergize G along with W when there is a call for heat" I then told him I needed clarification on whether the fan came on with the electric heat or not without the assistance of the thermostat". The response I got was I have no idea you will have to try it and see. And this was a tech there

So if the electric heat strip does not turn the fan on, on its own what is going to be the simplest way (with my setup) to accomplish this?
 

Last edited by rsl52; 03-07-14 at 06:10 PM.
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Old 03-07-14, 07:36 PM
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My favorite fan relay could accomplish this.
(The DPDT relay with a 24 Volt coil)

The W wire would energize the relay coil, this would then close R to G and W on the air handler.

I doubt that this will be required. especially if you connect to W1.

An Amp meter doesn't need to be expensive...
Klein Tools CL3000 AC Fork Meter - Amazon.com
 
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Old 03-12-14, 11:55 PM
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New unit will be installed first of week guess I will figure out if I need that extra relay inline to activate fan or not
 
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Old 03-19-14, 04:27 AM
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Ok so the new unit install should be complete today. So I should know after that if fan comes on with electric heat or not. HVAC guy spend day fitting new boxes on end of unit and tying into the ductwork. Also added another return to allow for more airflow.

Now my question, I know I am overthink this so someone simply it for me. The installer put in a drain trap with a water sensor in it. He is wiring it up so that when it activates it shuts down the unit (red wire I think he said). I want to be able to also have that switch hooked up to one of the "s" inputs on the thermostat EIM. But I can't have voltage on them. HOw do I do that?
 
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Old 03-19-14, 10:55 AM
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There is a float switch in the diagram that I drew. I don't like the float switches that pipe into the drain because slime buildup can prevent them from tripping 3 years down the road. You can't wire a float switch to break R And the S terminals. I'd get a second switch. Aquagaurd float switches are at $18 @ Amazon.
 
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Old 03-19-14, 02:45 PM
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I do have a float switch in the drain pan that is hooked to S1 now to alarm if there is an issue. (2nd level of alarming). Is there a way through a relay to have the condensate line float open a dry circuit? (was not sure if the relays would handle basically 24/7 closed?)
 
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Old 03-19-14, 03:34 PM
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was not sure if the relays would handle basically 24/7 closed?
What relay are you referring to in that question?


If the primary drain line float switch is breaking "R" the stat will go blank when the float switch trips. I have seen nuisance trips with primary drain line float switches as well as failure to trip problems when a float switch is installed in the primary drain line. The primary drain pan and the secondary drain pan are better location for float switches.
 

Last edited by Houston204; 03-23-14 at 12:36 AM.
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Old 03-20-14, 05:28 AM
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As far as relay I was referring to putting a relay inline with the condensate float switch so I could have alarming capabilities.

When you are referring to primary drain pan are you talking about actually putting a float switch in the unit itself?

The drain pan I was referring to was the plastic pan that sits under the entire unit. I have a float switch installed there.
 
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Old 03-20-14, 05:48 AM
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Why not just connect the float switch to the S3 terminals and configure the S3 terminals for float switch at the stat?
If your float switch is wired to turn off power to the stat it will not be able to send you any alerts.
 
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Old 03-22-14, 08:40 AM
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OK so the unit is hooked up and running. I cannot beleave how quiet it is.

As far as the issues I was working on, The blower does come on automatically when the electric heat is activated so no need for a DPDT relay there

As far as the float switches, we are away from the house for 3 or 4 days at least once a month during the spring/summer/fall so I like the idea of the switches actually shutting down the unit in case there is a problem but on the same note would like to know there is a problem. It is ashamed this fancy thermostat would not do that automatically if the alert was triggered.
 
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Old 03-22-14, 01:47 PM
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If you wire the float switch to break "Y" to the outdoor unit the thermostat can give you an alert that your unit is not cooling if the float switch trips.

I would use a second float switch before installing a relay but it is possible with a DPDT relay with a 24 volt coil...
Connect R through the float switch and then to one side of the relay coil.
Connect C to the other side of your relay coil.
Connect your Y signal to the outdoor unit in series though Com and NO on the top of the relay.
Connect the middle Com and N.O. to the S3 terminals on your EIM.
 
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Old 03-22-14, 06:11 PM
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OK Thank You for the help and all the information. I think I will get the in unit drain pan one you suggested and a second overflow pan one so that the unit will shut off and alarm me as well. Just because I wonder how the relays would hold up with always being energized.

Couple of thermostat programming questions.

1. One the Hum Wire is hooked up to U1 on the EIM and the other 1/2 of U1 has jumper going to RH terminal

In the thermostat programing under dehumidification I have it set as A/C with Low Speed Fan and Normally Closed. Is this the correct setting?

2. Is there a rule of thumb or way to determine what I should use for compressor lockout temperature? Or just set it to 30 degrees that way I use the oil fired hot water baseboard heat when it is below freezing (the baseboard heat radiating from the water lines in the crawl space keeps it above freezing so I never have to worry about frozen pipes)


And a third question not Thermostat related but heat pump and air handler itself.
The installer did not change any of the jumpers on the AH board he left them all the same as they were:

Cool - A
Heat - C
Delay - A
Adjust - A
AC/HP - HP
Hum - On


The electric heat models specifies minimum speed of D, so I am guessing gong a little faster and using C will be fine.

I am thinking the Delay I should use is D - Temperate "best suited for most of country"

My main concern is the Delay and Adjust jumpers the current setting has the cfm settings for Hi of 1200 and lo of 780. But in the book it says something about getting figures from the outdoor technical guide ad in there the cooling capacity - with air handler coils rated cfm for the combo is listed as 895. So are the settings he left as default for cool and adjust correct?
 
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Old 03-22-14, 07:06 PM
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I wouldn't use a relay for that application either.

I agree with the wiring and configuration in #1.

#2 is a good place to start.

If a humidistat is installed, change HUM STAT jumper from NO to YES.
Are you sure that yours is set for On instead of Yes?


Do you have just the cooling tap with no adj tap?


Is the EIM connected to W1?

I would interrupt Y (cooling) not R (power) with the float switch if you don't want a blank stat should the float switch ever trip.
 

Last edited by Houston204; 03-23-14 at 12:40 AM.
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Old 03-23-14, 04:49 AM
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That was my plan to interrupt the cooling and not the power.

The EIM w2 is connected to w1 of the air handler so the electric heat only comes on only if the temp drops 15 degrees below set temp,

You are correct Humistat jumper is on yes

Yes I have both a cooling tap and an adj tap they are both left at factory setting of "A"
 
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Old 03-23-14, 07:35 AM
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What is your delta t (heat rise) with only the electric heat strips and the blower running?
Seems like we are only running 630CFM in heat mode.



What is the delta t (temperature difference across the air handler) in cool mode?
We want 1000 CFM if the outdoor unit is 2.5 tons and we want 400 CFM per ton.
 
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Old 03-23-14, 08:06 AM
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no clue on the delta t stuff

the heat tap is set on C -630 lo and 1000 high for cfm. From what I see according to the manual it should be set at a minimum of D 550 and 720
 
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Old 03-23-14, 08:39 AM
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I'd change cooling to speed tap A-C for 1080cfm , and move the EIM W3 wire from W1 to W2 on the air handler so we don't have glowing red heating elements.
 
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Old 03-26-14, 06:35 AM
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Ok update.

I have installed the return and discharge sensors on the duct work and hooked them up.

I have not changed the blower speed yet, did not have time to take that cover off unit.


Looked at the EIM AUX 2 wire, It is running into the Air handler and hooked to White and Brown Wires (First Stage and Second Stage Heat Operation).

The Delta T's I got from running the setup through the thermostat are:

31 degree outside temp, Intial return air temp of 43 degrees, Intial discharge temp of 47 degrees (this is after unit sat without running all night, was cold enough hot water baseboard heat was used.)

All temps were run with a minimum of 10 minutes of run time and at least 10 minutes between each test

Cool - Negative 17 degrees
Heat Pump (Compressor) - 15 degrees
Heat Pump Electric Heat Only - 26 degrees

and on a side note when I started the compressor test the heat pump was initially in defrost mode (outside unit steaming, compressor running, but fan was not) - Delta was 4 degrees
 
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Old 03-27-14, 05:55 AM
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Running cooling with an outdoor temp below 58 degrees is tough on the compressor . This can cause damage if the compressor is forced to try to compress liquid refrigerant instead of the vapor it normally sees.

Running the cooling test on a warmer day is advisable.

Running over 400 cfm per ton will reduce humidity removal capacity in cool mode. The blower speed should be set to match the outdoor unit for cool mode.
 
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Old 03-28-14, 10:12 PM
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OK I will get the fan speed changed.
I will run the test on a warm day and report back on the results.
This unit has an ambient temp kit on it, is it still hold on the compressor to use at cold temps?

Are the deltas on the heat ok?
Will slowing the fan speed make those go up?
 
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Old 03-29-14, 01:51 AM
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http://www.upgnet.com/PdfFileRedirec...YTG-B-0410.pdf

A Looks like that unit does not ship with a crank case heater.

B
Low Temperature Cutout (2LT06700224) -
Prevents heat
pump operation below 10F ambient temperature.
Did you have one of these installed or are you referring to C a control with a tap on the high side piping that stops the outdoor fan below an adjustable high pressure reading, or D a control that slows the outdoor fan with a sensor on the liquid line?

Adding a crank case heater would be a good idea.

The head pressure control is something that I add on commercial units and refrigeration split systems that require cooling year round.
 
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Old 03-29-14, 12:50 PM
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There was an option kit that came with the unit, that the HVAC guy installed. It included
1. s1-02541367000 Crankcase Heater
2 s1-2LA06700424 R410 Low Ambient Kit
3. S1-2SA06704006 Hard Start Kit
 
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Old 03-29-14, 01:31 PM
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Money well spent. I would still recommend rechecking the cooling performance on a warmer day.
 
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Old 03-29-14, 01:43 PM
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I am glad to hear that, reassurance that I was not just getting smoke blown up my a$$ to get more money is reassuring.

I will recheck and post Delta for cooling when and if it gets warmer.

Are the Deltas for the heat good?


Looking at that diagram there is a heater switch??/ Does the crankcase heater run all the time or only below certain temp?
 
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Old 03-29-14, 02:43 PM
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Looks like you are running ~ 1200 cfm with the heat strips. The delta tee looks good with the heat strips.

I would like to see a few degrees higher in heat pump heating mode but with a 31 degree outdoor temp this may not be an indication that you should reduce fan speed. At 48 degrees ambient it should see at least 18 degrees.

The crank case heater has a thermostatic control so it will only run when it is cold outside and when the compressor is off if wired according to your diagram.
Though I have seen many techs miswire crankcase heaters to also run while the compressor is energized (L1 and L2) instead of opposite sides of the same power leg interrupted by a single pole contactor as shown in your diagram.
 
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Old 03-29-14, 06:46 PM
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Well I need to get in attic and pull cover off air handler and move the jumpers to the lower fan speed as you suggested. I will do that and recheck the Delta.

Is there easy way to check to see if the crankcase heater was wired correctly?
 
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Old 03-29-14, 07:49 PM
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Your contactor has a single pole that pulls in when 24 volts is provided.
The crankcase heater should be wired to opposite sides of this single pole.
When the contactor pulls in, you would get 0 volts to the crankcase heater.
When the contactor is not pulled in 240 volts would be supplied to the crankcase heater. (L2 and T2 in my example but L1 and T1 in your diagram)
 
 

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