Go Back  DoItYourself.com Community Forums > Heating, Cooling, Air Conditioning, Ventilation and T-Stat Controls > Thermostatic Controls
Reload this Page >

American Standard (Trane) Heat Pump / Air Handler / Thermostat not wired correct

American Standard (Trane) Heat Pump / Air Handler / Thermostat not wired correct

Reply

  #1  
Old 01-15-16, 07:09 PM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: USA
Posts: 23
American Standard (Trane) Heat Pump / Air Handler / Thermostat not wired correct

Hello all,

I just had a new American Standard (same as Trane I think) system installed:


Gold 17 heat pump, 2-ton (AKA Platinum XM or Trane XR17 I think)
TEM6 air handler
Gold 824 thermostat (AKA Gold XV control or Trane XL824 I think)

Unfortunately I do not believe the installer knows how to wire or set up the system correctly. I'd like to understand how this system should be wired and set up (at the thermostat) so that I can direct the installer if necessary and also to confirm it has been done correctly. I do not want to "do this myself", but I do want to confirm that the system ends up being installed and operating as it should. I would be very grateful for any help that you pros can provide.

Please note that the manual for the 824 thermostat does not have a wiring diagram for the TEM6 air handler. There are other wiring diagrams, but it is unclear which (if any) apply to the TEM6. I asked the technician which wiring diagram he used and he said "none of them - I wired it according to inside industry knowledge." If a wiring diagram exists for the 824 / TEM6 combination, I'd love to just give this to my installer and insist that it be done according to spec. Does such a wiring diagram exist?

Here are the wiring / setup issues that I've identified:

1. In order to use the on-board humidistat and variable fan control options in the 824 thermostat, I believe the system needs to be wired in a particular way, and I don't think this has been done at all. I think I can verify this by using the "system test" area in the installer menu. In the blower sub-menu, I can choose either 50% or 80%, but the fan blows the same, low flow rate for both tests.

After a lot of reading, I think the correct wiring is as follows. Can someone please confirm and/or correct me?

I believe the BK wire from the air handler should be connected to the BK terminal on the thermostat, but right now the BK wire on the air handler is capped. Also, the manual seems to state that the jumper wire between R and BK should be cut, but I can't locate this jumper to confirm what has been done (I assume it has not been cut yet). Also, the manual states that for "BK enabled comfort control", Y1 and Y2 should *not* be connected at the air handler, but both Y1 and Y2 are currently connected from the Heat Pump to the air handler to the thermostat. Can someone clarify exactly how the BK, BK/R jumper, and Y1 / Y2 should be wired for this system?

2. The dip switches for the "cooling off - delay options" (switches 5 and 6) are set at the default (1.5 minutes at 100%). Should this be set to "none" (both switches off) so that the thermostat controls the "off delay"?

3. The dip switches for the airflow settings on the air handler are all at the defaults listed in the manual. I have a 2-ton system. Shouldn't the dip switches be set for a 2-ton system rather than the default 3-ton system?

3. In the installer setup menu, the thermostat defaults to a "two compressor, two stage" system. When I pointed this out to the installer, he changed it to a "single compressor, two stage" system, which is what I believe the Gold 17 / XR17 heat pump is. However, after applying the change, the thermostat reverts to the "two compressor, two stage" system setting. Why is this happening? Is it related to the above wiring issues?

Thanks for reading, and any help you can provide!

Air Handler wiring (white w/black "BK" wire shown is just capped):



Air Handler wiring / control board / dip switches:



Thermostat wiring:

 
Sponsored Links
  #2  
Old 01-15-16, 08:17 PM
Houston204's Avatar
Forum Topic Moderator
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Texas
Posts: 7,299
https://www.theacoutlet.com/docs/004...Sheet-TEM6.pdf

Take a look at Note 3 on page 14...
Name:  Tem 6 Notes.jpg
Views: 3263
Size:  46.7 KB



I would wire as shown on page 18 and wouldn't use BK with this heat pump.
 
  #3  
Old 01-15-16, 08:53 PM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: USA
Posts: 23
Hi Houston,

I was hoping you'd chime in! I've seen you help in lots of other threads.

For what it's worth, there does seem to be newer versions of the TEM6 manual compared to the one you linked to. The hardcopy that my installer gave me is listed as 18-GF74D1-1C-EN (march 2015), and I found a 18-GF74D1-1D-EN (August 2015) online here:

http://www.munchsupply.com/docs/defa...all-manual.pdf

First of all, can you clarify for me if the BK wire should be connected from the air handler to the thermostat so that the air handler will respond to the humidistat inside the thermostat as well as the thermostat's settings for the variable blower speeds?

Next, you can see that the wiring diagram you mentioned on page 18 has an additional note in the newer version of the manual that I linked to above:

4. For BK enabled comfort control, cut the jumper wire between R and BK on the control board. See wiring schematic for details.
Sorry for the dumb question, but does the "note 3 on page 14" that you mentioned refer to this jumper wire between R and BK? i.e., the jumper wire to be cut is the red/white wire?

The wiring diagram on page 18 seems to confirm that if the BK wire on the air handler is connected to the thermostat, then Y1 and Y2 should *not* be connected to the air handler (note 3 on the wiring diagram on page 10). Can you confirm if my understanding is correct?
 
  #4  
Old 01-15-16, 09:11 PM
Houston204's Avatar
Forum Topic Moderator
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Texas
Posts: 7,299
The note 3 that I refer to is with the wiring diagram. It is on page 11 of your newer manual.

I usually don't use BK with Trane / Am Standard heat pumps.

I don't have lunch with my Trane tech support Angelo the way that I have with my Honeywell tech support David but I might send him a text on Monday to see if he will offer assistance without serial numbers showing that I installed it.
 
  #5  
Old 01-15-16, 10:03 PM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: USA
Posts: 23
Wow, that would be great if you were able to get some advice from Trane tech support for me.

Why don't you usually use BK with Trane heat pumps? If I understand correctly, the BK is just used by the thermostat to control the air handler according to the thermostat's variable blower control settings and advanced humidity control features. Or do I have that wrong?

Thanks again Houston
 
  #6  
Old 01-16-16, 06:22 AM
Houston204's Avatar
Forum Topic Moderator
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Texas
Posts: 7,299
It is important that the indoor fan delivers the correct cfm of airflow for each stage of compressor operation. If the airflow is too low you can shorten the life of the compressor. If the compressor fails 6 months after the warranty expires you would be surprised at the cost of replacement. It isn't even cheap if the compressor is covered but the labor, refrigerant and filter/drier isn't still covered.

The older air handlers had an odd work around to compensate for the fact that we do not want %50 airflow with stage 1 compressor operation. We want at least %70.





While it looks like the new model has resolved the fact that BK isn't required for the thermostat Y2 operation it is important that the air handler can deliver airflow for the %70 stage 1 and %100 for stage 2. If we can utilize BK for a %10 reduction in airflow without disconnecting thermostat Y1 and Y2 from the air handler I would feel much more comfortable.
 
  #7  
Old 01-16-16, 11:00 AM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: USA
Posts: 23
Thanks for your detailed explanation. I now have greater understanding why one would not want the air flow to be too low.

With that said, my understanding of what the 824 tstat wants to do is as follows:

When set to "enhanced mode", when a call for cooling is made, the tstat will tell the air handler to blow at 50% for the first minute only, then 80% for 7.5 minutes (1st stage), then 100% (on 2nd stage, if necessary).

Additionally, if the tstat's on-board humidistat measures humidity above the set target (50% I think), then air flow is reduced by 30% (I think this means that for 1st stage cooling, the fan runs at 80% - 30% = 50%?). I found this on page 33 of the tstat manual, available here:

www.bayareaservice.com/store/XL824_Install.pdf

If I understand correctly, the tstat cannot utilize the above-mentioned features unless BK is used (and the jumper is cut and Y1 and Y2 are not hooked up to the air handler as discussed previously).

Are you saying that running the blower at 50%, even temporarily, is bad for the compressor? Why would the manufacturer design the thermostat to have this feature if that is the case?

Thanks again for your help!!!
 
  #8  
Old 01-16-16, 11:51 AM
Houston204's Avatar
Forum Topic Moderator
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Texas
Posts: 7,299
Ouch, seems like that poor compressor will be trying to compress liquid refrigerant.

Do you have a 10 year parts and labor warranty?
 
  #9  
Old 01-16-16, 12:21 PM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: USA
Posts: 23
Hah, I wish the labor warranty was 10 years!

I have a 12 year (compressor), 10 year (other parts), and 2 year labor warranty.

To recap: you are saying that anything less than 70% of 400cfm/ton will cause big problems for the compressor. Is that correct?
 
  #10  
Old 01-16-16, 02:10 PM
Houston204's Avatar
Forum Topic Moderator
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Texas
Posts: 7,299
I would configure for 350 cfm per ton and would like the ability to drop to 325 cfm per ton with a demand for dehumidification.

Below 300 cfm per ton would likely cause damage.
 
  #11  
Old 01-16-16, 03:24 PM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: USA
Posts: 23
Excellent information. Thank you.

Does my ductwork factor into how many cfm per ton should be configured?
 
  #12  
Old 01-16-16, 05:30 PM
Houston204's Avatar
Forum Topic Moderator
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Texas
Posts: 7,299
Your variable speed motor should deliver the desired cfm output until the external static pressure is .9 inches water column.

.6 or .7" w.c. is fairly common but measuring the duct pressure on each side of the air handler with a manometer would give you the E.S.P.
 
  #13  
Old 01-17-16, 10:06 AM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: USA
Posts: 23
Do you have any idea how to fix problem #3 I mentioned in my original post?

[QUOTE][/3. In the installer setup menu, the thermostat defaults to a "two compressor, two stage" system. When I pointed this out to the installer, he changed it to a "single compressor, two stage" system, which is what I believe the Gold 17 / XR17 heat pump is. However, after applying the change, the thermostat reverts to the "two compressor, two stage" system setting. Why is this happening? Is it related to the above wiring issues?QUOTE]

Because the system is incorrectly set as a "two compressor" system in the tstat, the minimum airflow (that you've been explaining) is also incorrect. There is a setup option where you select the reduced air flow % for 1st stage cooling. This can be between 55% - 80% for a single compressor system (default is 80%), and is between 35% - 60% for a two compressor system (default is 50%). This is explained on page 28 of the tstat manual:

www.bayareaservice.com/store/XL824_Install.pdf

Because my system is set as a "two compressor, two stage" system, it is forced to choose a first stage cooling setting of between 35% - 60%. And as you mentioned, this is too low.

In the installer setup menu, why can't I select "single compressor, two stage"? When I do, it reverts to "two compressor" immediately after. Is this a wiring issue? i.e., is the wiring incorrect so that it forces the system to think it is a two compressor system?
 
  #14  
Old 01-18-16, 05:38 AM
Houston204's Avatar
Forum Topic Moderator
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Texas
Posts: 7,299
The air handler diagram has the current wiring for use with 2 step compressor operation.

It will deliver 80% or 100% according to the air handler manual.
 
  #15  
Old 01-21-16, 10:45 AM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: USA
Posts: 23
Hi Houston,

Any luck getting some clarification from your Trane tech support?
 
  #16  
Old 01-21-16, 07:38 PM
Houston204's Avatar
Forum Topic Moderator
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Texas
Posts: 7,299
I would need complete model numbers.
 
  #17  
Old 01-22-16, 06:26 AM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: USA
Posts: 23
Sure, here they are:

4a6h7024a1000a - heat pump

Tem6a0b24h21sa - air handler

Acont824as52da - tstat
 
  #18  
Old 01-23-16, 07:47 PM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: USA
Posts: 23
I thought I'd add that I found this Trane training powerpoint today that appears to have a wiring diagram that applies to me. What do you think?

http://tranepennohio.com/secure/tech...r2014%203T.pdf



 
  #19  
Old 01-24-16, 12:34 AM
Houston204's Avatar
Forum Topic Moderator
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Texas
Posts: 7,299
That is the configuration that I have seen with all 2 step models until now.

It does not use a thermostat BK terminal and will not give you dehumidification.
 
  #20  
Old 01-24-16, 12:51 PM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: USA
Posts: 23
So are you saying that is the correct wiring diagram? Or that in order to use the thermostat's dehumidification feature that I should be using a different wiring diagram that utilizes the thermostat's BK?

I just wish I could hand a wiring diagram to the tech and tell him to follow it!
 
  #21  
Old 01-29-16, 07:49 AM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: USA
Posts: 23
Bump for my last question

Also, any chance you've spoken to the Trane rep?

Thanks again Houston
 
  #22  
Old 02-08-16, 02:52 PM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: USA
Posts: 23
Hi Houston,

Sorry to post again, but I'm still trying to get this wiring figured out. Any chance you've been able to talk to your Trane rep? Thanks
 
  #23  
Old 02-11-16, 10:57 AM
Houston204's Avatar
Forum Topic Moderator
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Texas
Posts: 7,299
I see nothing to indicate that dehumidification is a good option with your application.

I think you would get improper airflow and eventual compressor damage.

I would not recommend it.
 
  #24  
Old 05-24-16, 08:25 PM
Member
Join Date: May 2016
Location: USA
Posts: 6
Domp, did you get this resolved?

"In the installer setup menu, the thermostat defaults to a "two compressor, two stage" system. When I pointed this out to the installer, he changed it to a "single compressor, two stage" system, which is what I believe the Gold 17 / XR17 heat pump is. However, after applying the change, the thermostat reverts to the "two compressor, two stage" system setting. Why is this happening"

My Trane Xl824 was doing the same thing. Check your firmware/software version. I downloaded the version 3.1 from the Trane website. Put it on a flash drive and then connect the drive to the thermostat with the USB cable that came with the thermostat and then do the update.
After the update, my thermostat no longer reverts to two compressor, two stage.
 
  #25  
Old 05-24-16, 08:37 PM
PJmax's Avatar
Group Moderator
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Northern NJ - USA
Posts: 48,380
Welcome to the forums.

Was this a factory authorized installer ? He should be aware of any needed firmware updates.
 
  #26  
Old 05-24-16, 08:44 PM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: USA
Posts: 23
@bigtexan: Thanks for your message!

Yes, I did get this all resolved. I ended up hiring another HVAC technician to fix what the first (factory authorized!) tech screwed up or didn't know how to do. What a fiasco!

As you mentioned, the issue with the "two compressor, two stage" was fixed with a firmware update. I had to figure this one out on my own! A related problem was that certain thermostats were not automatically downloading firmware updates. I manually downloaded the 3.0 firmware update which fixed the compressor setting. But the 3.0 firmware still did not automatically download updates, because bout 2 weeks ago I checked for new firmware and found the 3.1 update which I manually downloaded. I noticed in the 3.1 firmware notes that they claim to have fixed the problem with firmware updates not downloading automatically. So hopefully from now on the firmware problems are solved!
 
  #27  
Old 05-26-16, 07:02 PM
Member
Join Date: May 2016
Location: USA
Posts: 6
Domp, glad to hear you got it resolved. Just had a XL18i installed with a XV80 furnace and the XL824 thermostat.

The installer wired it per the instructions in the XV80 install manual, and like you I don't think the Thermostat is able to do what its supposed to do with that configuration.

The XL824 has a different suggested wiring configuration and he is coming back out tomorrow to change it to that configuration.

Right now, when we go to installer setup, on page 3, there is no option to calibrate the humidity gauge on the thermostat. The manual says there should be an option there to calibrate it. I'm hoping that the option shows up once the thermostat is rewired, because right now its reading about 20% too high.
 
  #28  
Old 05-26-16, 08:39 PM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: USA
Posts: 23
Hi Texan,

It took a while to get my system wired correctly. Trane's documentation was not very clear, and even when the tech called his support contact, there was still some difficulty figuring out exactly how the system was supposed to be wired in order to enable the dehumidification feature. Now that it is wired correctly, I can plainly see that the system goes into dehumidification mode when the humidity exceeds the set point (50% right now). Works great!

I looked in the installer menu on my system and I do not have the humidity calibration setting either. I seem to recall that the old firmware I was running did have the humidity calibration setting. This would mean that the newest 3.01 firmware does not have it enabled for some reason. Personally I don't think this is related to the way the system is wired - but I'm no technician! I'd encourage your tech to call support and inquire about whether this feature was disabled in the latest firmware. I was surprised that tech support was able to actually talk to their engineers while my technician was on the phone with them.

I noticed that the humidity sensor was quite a ways off when my system was first powered on after install, but after about 24 hours the sensor was in line with a separate hygrometer that I had siting next to the thermostat. Are you sure that your humidity sensor is persistently inaccurate? Another thing that I recall reading was to ensure that the hole in the wall for the thermostat wiring is sealed (caulk or foam), otherwise the temperature and humidity sensors can give bad readings.

Good luck!
 
  #29  
Old 05-27-16, 07:30 PM
Member
Join Date: May 2016
Location: USA
Posts: 6
Domp, good info thanks. The tech did seal the hole behind the thermostat on his last visit but it made no difference. It's been installed 2 weeks now and the humidity gauge is still 20% too high. It thinks it 62%, but 2 independent readings of humidity in the house say its 42%. The paper manual clearly shows a calibration option on Installer menu page 3, but its just not there on the actual thermostat screen.

The tech never made it out today, he got stuck on another job that ran late. Since my system is up and running I know its a low priority for him to rewire it. He said he will try to make it out on Tuesday. I know he will come at some point because we have an open city permit inspection ticket and I withheld $200 of the final payment until everything is done.

Meanwhile, I've been doing as much online searching as I can to find out info and provide any helpful information to him to get the system dialed in right.

Here is a snapshot of the wiring diagram for the Thermostat manual. My system is not currently wired this way, but this is the way he is going to rewire it too on his next visit.
Name:  thermostat_wiring.jpg
Views: 14905
Size:  33.0 KB
 
  #30  
Old 05-28-16, 01:19 AM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: USA
Posts: 23
Yeah, the humidity adjustment feature is definitely supposed to be there. I'm pretty sure that I remember seeing it in the previous firmware.

I took an independent reading of the interior humidity tonight and found that the independent reading was a fair bit lower than the thermostat (42% vs. 49%). Not sure what's up with that. My hygrometer is just a cheapie though, so it could be incorrect.

Speaking of humidity - I noticed that since I updated the firmware that the thermostat's reported exterior humidity (based on weather data via the wifi) more often than not reads 99%. In other words, it doesn't seem to be syncing correctly. Have you noticed this with yours too?

That wiring diagram looks very similar to the one used for my system. Once it is wired correctly the humidity control feature is really great. So important for humid climates!
 
  #31  
Old 06-05-16, 08:15 PM
Member
Join Date: May 2016
Location: USA
Posts: 6
He finally came out and rewired it to match the diagram in post #29 with 2 exceptions.
a) my outside unit had no RED wire to connect to. (its not a heatpump).
b) on the inside unit, we left a jumper from R to O. (without the jumper the thermostat could not control the blower speed).

It seems to be working correctly now.

There is still no option to calibrate the thermostat humidity on installer setup screen 3. But I did find a (new?) calibration option under menu, settings, thermostat, indoor calibration. It lets me adjust the humidity reading on the XL824 up or down by 5% in increments of 1%. That helps, but my gauge is about 20% off so it still reads incorrect.

I remember seeing an outdoor humidity reading on the main screen before, but its not currently displaying the outdoor humidity on the main screen anymore. Not sure where it went. I never saw it at 99% though, it always seemed to be accurate.
 
  #32  
Old 06-05-16, 09:13 PM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: USA
Posts: 23
Hi Tex,

Glad to hear you've made progress.

You mentioned that you didn't have an R wire on your outdoor unit because it's not a heat pump, but the wiring diagram in post 27 labeled "......variable speed gas furnace" is not for a heat pump. Are you sure that you don't have an R wire on your outdoor unit?

Also, do you mean to say that you didn't cut the BK jumper like the wiring diagram specifies? Or that you did cut the BK jumper, but that there was also another jumper from R to O that you left intact?

Re: humidity calibration - it sounds like the engineers moved the calibration option from the "protected" installer menu in previous firmware into the regular user menu on the latest firmware. Thanks for letting me know!

What are you going to do about your humidity sensor being so far off?

I don't recall the outdoor humidity being displayed on the main screen - only the outdoor temperature. I have to go into the weather screen to show outdoor humidity, and then it often shows 99%.

The main screen does show my indoor humidity though. Does yours?
 
  #33  
Old 06-05-16, 09:51 PM
Member
Join Date: May 2016
Location: USA
Posts: 6
Thanks.. I'm glad its done.

Yes, we both looked quite carefully at the outdoor unit and the wiring diagram that came with the outdoor unit (XL18i), there is no RED wire. The tech said he usually only sees a red wire on heatpumps.

There was no BK jumper on the board to cut (XV80) and the manual that came with the XV80 said not to ever cut any jumpers on the board. So the R to O jumper is what enables the BK circuit.

Basically, I think the Trane installation manuals are just a hot mess. They offer way too much conflicting information and the type font size is ridiculously small.

He was going to check with Trane on the missing red wire and what/if any implications that has. Also going to ask about calibrating the humidity gauge. I'm not holding my breath on that! He spend many many more hours on this install that I'm sure he planned on. He did mention possibly swapping out the thermostat under warranty, but Trane wanted him to rewire it to the current configuration before doing that.

For now, I've set the desired humidity inside to a higher than desired level and used the limited thermostat humidity calibration to bring the reading down 5%. This way, the only thing off is the humidity display. The actual humidity in the house is 42% (I believe) and the gauge shows 57%. But the system is not trying to overcool or run dehumidification longer than normal because it "thinks" it has the desired humidity of 60%.

Yes, my main screen shows indoor humidity on the main screen. Maybe it never showed outdoor humidity but I thought I saw it once. Pressing the outdoor temperature number brings up a sub menu that shows the outdoor humidity. I've never seen that at 99%, always seems to be accurate. Maybe try changing your location setting the next nearest zip code and see if shows a different humidity level for you?
 
  #34  
Old 06-05-16, 10:16 PM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: USA
Posts: 23
It sounds like you know as much about your install as the technician!

I, too, found that the Trane manuals were all over the place. Different instructions in the air handler vs. outdoor unit vs. thermostat, many different versions, etc.

Are you sure your reference humidistat is accurate? I'd love 42% actual RH in my house! I'm at 50% at 78F. I did try setting my humidity at 45%, but the system didn't seem to be able to deliver that. Maybe I'll try again. It is just so humid here.

I'd like the main screen to show outdoor humidity. They should add that with a new firmware. Good idea on trying a nearby zip to see if that fixes my 99% humidity problem. I'll try that!
 
  #35  
Old 06-14-16, 01:03 PM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: USA
Posts: 23
Just thought I'd let you know!

It looks like the mynexia.com website is now keeping track of HVAC usage with the XL824 thermostat.

Basically the history info that is stored in the technician portion of the thermostat is being reported to mynexia.com, but in a much more friendly and informative format. Number of hours on each stage of heating or cooling as well as fan usage is tracked against daily humidity and temperature info. Presented as a graph but also available as a .csv download. Pretty cool! I only have a few days of usage info, so I guess this is a brand new feature.
 
  #36  
Old 06-15-16, 08:52 PM
Member
Join Date: May 2016
Location: USA
Posts: 6
Thanks! I took a look and sure enough I have the new data display you talked about. I'll have to track it for awhile and see how useful it is.

Did you zip code change give you better outdoor humidity results?
 
Reply

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Display Modes