idea for roman tub


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Old 02-22-05, 09:17 PM
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idea for roman tub

I've been installing a roman tub (cadenza elite) in my bath, I'm not in a rush (and this stuff is expensive!).


I have a waterfall filler ($600, yikes!), which looks great when it's on, but who wants to sit and watch 80 gallons of water flow until it's full?

So, here's my idea, using OEM parts (intake and deck mounted air switch).

Install a second intake next to the existing one, running that to a small (700-900 gph) aquarium style pump, then through a one way check valve (so water doesn't flow through the intake when the faucet is on), then through a ball valve (so I can adjust the flow) and then into a T off the filler line.

This way, I can have the waterfall running anytime I want once the tub has enough water in it, and not just when the tub is filling with water.

All told, I'm looking at about $200 in materials and a little extra labor to put it all together.

I couldn't come up with any reason this wouldn't work, the aquarium pump only takes about 40 watts, so it should easily work on the existing pump outlet (the heater is on a seperate circuit) and both are GFCI'd, so I'm covered there as well.

thoughts?
 
  #2  
Old 02-24-05, 09:16 PM
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Hi Pendragon,
- that sounds like a pretty unique idea ! Go for it , and post pics when you're finished.

Do it Right - Do it once.
 
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Old 02-25-05, 05:24 PM
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I've ordered up the parts, actually got some already.

Funny story..
I got the parts diagram for the tub and picked the parts I need (suction fitting, air switch and air activator). The suction fitting I have looked nothing like the one they sent. I called them back, nope, that's the part # we have for it. So I call American Standard direct and talk to someone in their tech department and describe it for him.. Oh, that's the 'old style', your tub has the new style. So I say ok, great, can I get the part # for that so I can order it. He says no problem, I'll just send you one out, no charge.

Sweet!
The new style has a built in vacuum breaker, not a big issue with the small pump I will be using, but still, I at least need the screen that is in the tub to match!

Just waiting on the pump and check valve now.

I have pics of the tub as it is (still need to enclose it) if you want to check those out.





 

Last edited by Pendragon; 03-10-05 at 11:40 AM.
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Old 03-06-05, 11:13 AM
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Well I installed it friday, although I still need to complete the electrical.
Only one problem, the 800 gph pump I bought, doesn't flow enough water!
I'm going to have to go to a larger pump to make it look right, and I am leaning towards maybe a 1500 gph pump.

But hey, at least it works!
 
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Old 03-07-05, 12:10 PM
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Here are some more pictures..

Exterior, the intake on the left is for the filler pump.


Interior, on the right for filler pump.


With pump on..
 

Last edited by Pendragon; 03-08-05 at 08:05 PM.
  #6  
Old 03-07-05, 04:32 PM
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Thumbs up Looks Good

The pictures of your tub look GREAT!

From what I can see, you plan on a 2X6 perimeter framing. The only thing I noticed that might not be easy to adapt to is the location of the knobs to turn the water on and off. Cause it would seem that you have to step into the tub to turn it on, adjust, and then turn it off when it reaches over the jets, or hot enough.

Do you have access to the underside of the tub from below where the faucet is? I have done a few in my day, and either I place the knobs on a ledge close by to where you can walk up to it and the spout either opposite or cati-corner.

They are a nightmare to work on without access. Get out the chainsaw in some cases.
 
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Old 03-07-05, 05:15 PM
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Originally Posted by GooberScoob
The pictures of your tub look GREAT!

From what I can see, you plan on a 2X6 perimeter framing. The only thing I noticed that might not be easy to adapt to is the location of the knobs to turn the water on and off. Cause it would seem that you have to step into the tub to turn it on, adjust, and then turn it off when it reaches over the jets, or hot enough.
You do, but then you're getting in the tub anyway, might as well get your feet wet.. Actually, as long as you stay on the end opposite the drain, you won't even get your feet wet and it doesn't take much time to fill, maybe 10 minutes tops.

Originally Posted by GooberScoob
Do you have access to the underside of the tub from below where the faucet is?
I have an access panel on the outside (under the vinyl) to access the plumbing for the faucet.

Originally Posted by GooberScoob
I have done a few in my day, and either I place the knobs on a ledge close by to where you can walk up to it and the spout either opposite or cati-corner.
I saw that as the recommended placement, but it just didn't look right having the filler (which is quite large) taking up a prime sitting spot and facing away from room. I think it looks much cleaner this way.

Originally Posted by GooberScoob
They are a nightmare to work on without access. Get out the chainsaw in some cases.
I have the access panel for the faucet (and how often do you need access to that?).

The framing will be constructed as such that it actually won't be attached to anything. A bead of caulking with an embeded string will fixate the edges (the string making it easier to break the seal if needed), the shape and weight (once tiled) along with some backing blocks will do the rest. Then, I can remove the entire front facade for access to not only the pump (required for warranty coverage) but the drain, intake fittings, electrical switches, etc.
That will have insulation in it as well, as the pump is quite loud.
 
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Old 03-07-05, 06:56 PM
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I think they mean the spout one end, the handles easy to reach on the other, the waterfall spout looks good where it's at.





I have the access panel for the faucet (and how often do you need access to that?).
Usually once, and that is the time it matters most. Nothing worse than telling the customer that the tile and wood is coming out to work on the faucet, or replace it when it falls behind the times in style.



This picture right here



If it wasn't for that removable marble slab in front of that tub, there is no way I could of installed that faucet. Talk about difficult. Sheeeeeeeesh
 
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Old 03-08-05, 08:01 PM
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Gee, the TV seems a bit... excessive..

I'll grab a pic of the plumbing access tomorrow, since it finally stopped raining.
I had to get rather creative with the plumbing in order to get the waterfall pump in there, and it is a little noisier than I expected, probably because it is hard piped to the filler instead of using flexible line like the intake side.
 
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Old 03-09-05, 12:33 PM
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pics..



 
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Old 03-13-05, 02:57 PM
wizisthebomb
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Looking for ideas...

Nice work!!! maybe you guys can help me out with some ideas:

Okay, so I am in the midst of remodeling my sister's master bathroom. She wanted a waterfall tub filler - not like the ones pictured in this thread, no, she wanted a "real" waterfall coming out of the tiled wall above the whirlpool - and after looking at various concepts online ranging from about $1000 - $3000+, I decided to fabricate one myself (see my signature).

I finally came up with a design that seemed to work quite well... at least it did while hooked up to a garden hose. I used pipe fittings and copper sheetmetal and soldered it up and it worked pretty well hooked up to the hose. Then I stuck it in the wall...

I have the thing hooked up to the plumbing lines and in the tiled wall - a
1 1/2 in. deep x 10 in. wide "trough" protrudes out from the wall, the waterfall starts there - here's the problem: the water pressure in the master bathroom is not even close to that of my test-setup gardenhose, and the wall of falling water does not come out of the trough with enough force to clear the lip of the whirlpool tub - it hits the lip, water everywhere, just a little makes it into tub and when you first turn the valves on, the initial wall of water just runs down the wall.

Of course, looking back, I should've installed an alternate method, such as a roman tub filler spout with a diverter, for filling the tub. That is the current plan, except now dear old sis wants to do away with the waterfall completely, as she has decided she requires a hand shower fixture for the whirlpool. Yeah, whatever... nice of her to wait till the tiling - I marble-tiled the tub deck and walls - is all done. Luckily on the opposite side of the entire tiled bathroom wall is the master bedroom's clothe's closet.

So, to make a long story a little longer... I spent a considerable amount of time on this darn waterfall, and while ripping it out of the wall and replacing one tile and then replumbing the tub with a deck-mounted roman tub filler/hand shower fixture isn't the worst thing I've had to do on my sister's house remodel, it's just that I spent all that time on the waterfall, and... I'd sure like to keep it, if possible. I should mention that the waterfall is running off of the rough-in valve's shower/upper port, the lower/tub port is currently capped.

I am thinking maybe I can incorporate some sort of pump and check-valve setup between the hot/cold rough-in valve and my waterfall to increase the pressure/flow to the waterfall itself so that the wall of water comes out of the trough with enough force to make it into the tub. And I would like to uncap the lower/tub port of the rough-in valve and use that to run a line to a roman tub filler spout/hand shower fixture mounted in the tub surround deck, but how do I incorporate a diverter to switch between the waterfall & roman tub spout?

Any suggestions? I'll try to post some pics as soon as I can find somewhere to host them.

ps: I know I was asking for headaches by doing work for a family member, but the "contractor" idiot they had hired initially was robbing my sis and my father blind - I stepped in and took over after they had dumped $60,000+ into this crook's pocket, and have had to fix/redo nearly everything he touched.

(edit: to include instant e-mail notification)
 
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Old 03-15-05, 03:06 PM
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OK.. so I've had a few days now to play with it..

Why does the GFCI outlet trip about every 3rd or 4th cycle of the waterfall pump? I tried both the tub pump and heater outlets (with or without those items on) and it doesn't seem to make a difference. Every now and then, and it seems to be only when switching 'off', it trips the outlet.

Here's what I did (because I wanted to avoid cutting the molded cord):

I essentially made a switched outlet, that plugs in to the existing outlet.

GFCIOutlet1 -> PlugWire1 - > switch -> PumpOutlet
GFCIOutlet2 -> PlugWire2 -> PumpOutlet
GroundWire -> PlugGround. (the pump has no ground wire).

Using the switch to simply interrupt the flow between the GFCI outlet and the outlet box that the pump is plugged in to.

I see no reason for the GFCI to trip..

And another thing..

I noticed (not the first time, just thought to ask about it), that the hot water comes out fine, until it gets hot and then the flow cuts back to like half.
The valves were clearly marked 'HOT' and 'COLD'. Is there likely some type of sensor in the valve that it cutting back the flow when the water heats up?
If so, is there any reason that I cannot swap the valves so that it will allow full flow on BOTH valves?
 

Last edited by Pendragon; 03-15-05 at 03:18 PM.
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Old 03-15-05, 03:13 PM
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Originally Posted by wizisthebomb
Nice work!!! maybe you guys can help me out with some ideas:

house remodel, it's just that I spent all that time on the waterfall, and... I'd sure like to keep it, if possible. I should mention that the waterfall is running off of the rough-in valve's shower/upper port, the lower/tub port is currently capped.

I am thinking maybe I can incorporate some sort of pump and check-valve setup between the hot/cold rough-in valve and my waterfall to increase the pressure/flow to the waterfall itself so that the wall of water comes out of the trough with enough force to make it into the tub. And I would like to uncap the lower/tub port of the rough-in valve and use that to run a line to a roman tub filler spout/hand shower fixture mounted in the tub surround deck, but how do I incorporate a diverter to switch between the waterfall & roman tub spout?
As we found out, water pressure alone just isn't enough to clear the edge of the tub if the filler isn't over the edge already.
A pump inline with the supply probably wouldn't work either, as you'd need a pretty decent pump to boost the volume and pressure over what the supply line already has. My system simply recycles the water that is already in the tub.

Not exactly sure what you mean on the valves.. It sounds like you installed a standard tub/shower valve. Roman Tub fixtures don't have a 'shower/tub' system (at least not the ones I looked at).

You can get a diverter valve to run a handheld shower, but it runs off supply line water, not tub water. So if you use it, you will be adding more water to a presumably already full tub, so it didn't make much sense to me, and these tubs are made for relaxing in anyway, not bathing, since all of them say not to use bath oils or soaps.
 
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Old 03-15-05, 03:16 PM
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Oh, I will say this, and I wish now I had thought of it before installing the tub.

I could have installed a thermostatic valve and a dishwasher type electric valve, and done away completely with the hot/cold water handles. If I had thought about it then, that's what I would have done. Too late now though, as the holes are already drilled.

The price of the handles would have more than covered the cost of the thermostatic valve, water valve and switch!
 
 

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