New toilet not flushing well


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Old 05-07-09, 02:48 PM
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New toilet not flushing well

Forgive the length of this but I would really like some input.

I live in Costa Rica, but American Standard has a large presence here and I bought two new toilets, the Petit Gazon model, 13 liter pf (for two remodeled bathrooms). I installed the first one and from day one the thing would not remove the solids well, and would constantly clog up. The hardware store would not take the toilet back, but referred me to the American Standard representative company here.

I called and told them my problems and mentioned that it seemed to me the design was defective as the exit at the cone was an inch and three quarters in diameter...seemingly very small. They said that was by design. I also argued that the old toilet, an American Standard, had sat on the same system (four inch PVC DWV) for years and functioned well, but every time I use the new one it clogs.

They said it’s probably a problem with the system as they have never had a complaint about this model toilet, and sent a rep. to check out my installation. They took the toilet to their plant and tested it and, of course, they said it had no problems.

I called and complained again and this time they sent the first man with an administrator. When they arrived they did an "in home test" with two thin, sanitary napkins. When flushed both stayed in the bowl. They agreed that was neither good nor normal. The decision was made to install the second toilet that was still in the box to rule out a system problem. They of course were ruling out the possibility that both toilets could be defective, and that I could be stuck with two “used” toilets that didn't work. The administrator assured me they would guarantee both toilets. When they did the sanitary napkin test on the second one it failed as well.

Their argument now is, it is a system problem in my home and there is nothing wrong with the toilets. They are saying because there is no ventilation to the system that is most likely what is causing the problem. (You need to understand that none of the houses here are built by U.S. standards with vent pipes…everything is concrete and steel construction because of earthquakes.) The drains all go into “collector boxes” which serve as cleanouts and vents because they are handmade concrete boxes that are by no means sealed, so there is not a pressure problem. In fact I removed the cover to the box which is about 3 meters (10 ft.) from the toilet to eliminate any questions about venting issues, and the rate for the water leaving the bowl was exactly the same as with the cover in place…15 seconds.

My argument remains that the toilets have a defective design and on the fact that for twenty years I had no problem with the old toilet (well normal, once in a great while clog) on the old system, and now I have to live with the plunger along side the toilet in a new bathroom.

Has anyone heard of two new toilets like this that would not flush correctly on a seemingly well functioning system? Any suggestions as to a plan of attack?

Thanks.
RedSed
 
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Old 05-07-09, 05:00 PM
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the only thing a vent system does is protect the trap. a toilet by design is made to siphon and therefore does not need a vent for anything other than to protect it from being siphoned by another fixture.

they are trying to baffle you with b.s. since they obviously are not brilliant!
take the sanitary napkin test as a testament to thier ignorance since they should never be introduced to your plumbing system. they tend to cause clogs and such since they take years not minutes to break down. either the toilet is defective (which A.S. has been know for lately) or the toilet needs some adjustments made (which if they were experts they should have confirmed were proper)

have a plumber out to varify your sewer line is not restricted/clogged or buy a better quality toilet if one is available in your area such as a toto drake and prove it is their toilet and not your system
 
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Old 05-07-09, 05:00 PM
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Does that design of toilet fire water down the overflow tube as its flushing ? How is the water pressure when the toilet is flushing ? If the line pressure drops alot during a flush, maybe you need a way to hold some pressure close to the toilet (Like a small pressure tank mounted nearby ?)

Just a thought..
 
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Old 05-07-09, 05:04 PM
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a tank type toilet does not even need the water turned on to it to give a proper flush. when the water to the building is turned off you have 1(one) flush per toilet until the tank is refilled. the only thing is your trap will not be replenished and therefore you may get sewer gas entering your building until the bowl is refilled
 
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Old 05-07-09, 05:15 PM
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Wow 13 liters per flush...must not be any low flow rules there..thats almost 3.5 US gal.

That horn size does seem a little small, but I know some US toilets had smaller trapways as well. Now it seems like they've pretty much figured everything out and the low flush toilets even have 2-2 1/4".
 
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Old 05-07-09, 05:44 PM
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Plumermandan, Yeah I thought it was pretty much bs too. I'm no professional but I've installed a lot of toilets in my life, and do most of the projects myself around the house and do know a thing or two. I'm no flow-dynamics engineer either, but this toilet has major issues. The trapway makes it's final bend and shoots the water accross the top of that 1 3/4 inch hole, but the wierd thing is on the other side of the hole the base of the toilet is hollow so the water and the solids want to go there instead of down the drain hole.

Gunguy45, We really don't have much of a water issue here, but I thought with a 3.6 gal. flush I would be safe (it's actually less than the old tank). They have the 1.6 gal. models for sale here as well, and I just heard from a friend who has one it works well. They had to take a different model American Standard back to the hardware store because it wouldn't flush the stuff either.

I'm going to have to fight to get them to take this back it looks like...but I don't give up easily. I thought I might try calling A.S. in the U.S. and see if they have any say over these people here.
 
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Old 05-07-09, 05:58 PM
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Originally Posted by plumbermandan View Post
either the toilet is defective (which A.S. has been know for lately) or the toilet needs some adjustments made (which if they were experts they should have confirmed were proper)

What kind of adjustments did you mean?

have a plumber out to varify your sewer line is not restricted/clogged or buy a better quality toilet if one is available in your area such as a toto drake and prove it is their toilet and not your system
I have verified there is no restriction and really don't want to lose the $350 invested in this one (but must admit I can't live with the thing the way it is now either). I wish I could find a Toto here.
 
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Old 05-07-09, 08:34 PM
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can you at least get a A.S. cadet 4 there? i would even go for a kohler or crane or just about anything before i settled for an A.S.
 
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Old 05-08-09, 04:11 AM
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Originally Posted by plumbermandan View Post
a tank type toilet does not even need the water turned on to it to give a proper flush. when the water to the building is turned off you have 1(one) flush per toilet until the tank is refilled.
I thought 13 litres was the new type water-saver toilets, and maybe the design needed that wee bit of extra from the overflow tube.. lol.. I didnt realize some toilets now flush with even less than 1/2 of that much water ! Amazing. I doubt my uh.. products.. are gonna flush with that little bit of water

I wonder someday if they'll get back to putting the tank up high on the wall so they can get us to use even less water..
 
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Old 05-08-09, 10:03 AM
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dave, if you wanna pay the money they still make those type but since we have pressured water the height of the tank does not matter anymore.

they now make 1.28 gal or about (4.5 liter) flush toilets. these toilets have large flapper valves and trap ways along with the trap way being glazed (real slick). even some of the 1.6 gal. toilets have that technology like the A.S.cadet 4, the right kohler cimmeron, the elger titan and the toto drake to name a few
 
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Old 05-08-09, 05:15 PM
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I would think that a tank of water up 6ft in the air would have more potential energy than one thats only 'up' a foot in the air (compared to the bowl). Would that not translate into a more forceful flush ? Maybe the diff is so slight that it wouldnt matter ?

Not to get further OT (but still about flushing..).. why dont they have a toilet that is fed full line pressure (say a 1" line ?) with its own pressure tank (but no standing water tank) to get a good blast at the start ?

Maybe a guy tried it once, shot &*%! all over the bathroom, and then removed it and didnt tell anyone...
 
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Old 05-08-09, 10:42 PM
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Originally Posted by plumbermandan View Post
can you at least get a A.S. cadet 4 there? i would even go for a kohler or crane or just about anything before i settled for an A.S.
Yeah, they have a cadet here but I think it was a 3...didn't really check em out. They also have the Champion that will flush golf balls if you ever need to get rid of some.

I'm going to look on the other side of town to see if I can find some other options. A friend just bought a A.S. Hamilton after having the same problem I have with a different model A.S., I think it was a Savona.

Any thoughts on the Hamilton model?
 
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Old 05-09-09, 04:47 PM
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I have the Champion toilet, and it's been very nice. That thing sure can flush alot of "product."
 
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Old 05-10-09, 01:26 PM
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I bought an AS Champion before I read about the issues with them. I'm glad I did - it flushes circles around a Toto that I mistakenly thought was a great toilet.
 
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Old 05-10-09, 07:58 PM
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toto as with most manufacturers has their duds.

daveC72, they make them and they are called flush valves. you see them on commercial toilets and urinals
 
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Old 05-14-09, 06:53 PM
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Originally Posted by plumbermandan View Post
can you at least get a A.S. cadet 4 there? i would even go for a kohler or crane or just about anything before i settled for an A.S.
Plumermandan, I checked out the Cadet 3 (the only one I could find here) and the Champion, both one piece models. Do you have any opinions one over the other in terms of functionality? The Cadet is about $130 cheaper and a bit more compact.
 
 

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