Went to replace wax ring seal, found a rusted flange

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  #1  
Old 09-24-11, 12:30 AM
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Went to replace wax ring seal, found a rusted flange

So, lately I've had some water leaking in to the basement. I did a quick google search, found this site, and saw that my problem was probably that my wax seal needed to be replaced. I followed the steps on how to get to the seal, removed all the old wax only to find that the top of the flange was rusting. The flange was just screwed into the floor and sticking down into the cast-iron pipe, so it was easy to pull out.

Now, I'm guessing that I have to replace that flange, but I'm not sure what I should be looking for at Home Depot or Lowes. Can anyone help out with that? I'm not sure what I should get at this point.

 
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Old 09-24-11, 05:49 PM
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There are a few types of flanges available. That's the easy part. The problem is the flange isn't in the cast iron pipe. It's in the lead bend which connects to the cast iron pipe. That needs to be changed too. If you have never done it before, you probably need some help.
 
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Old 09-24-11, 06:23 PM
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Take a close picture of the pipe in the floor. As pilpo says its probably lead.

Take a pic of the bend in the basement also.

Easiest is to cut the ell out, and replace with PVC. But you need special tools.

Its not really a DIY job.

Mike NJ
 
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Old 09-24-11, 07:56 PM
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I just bought a new flange (PVC) and put it in. That, with the new wax seal, seems to have worked. Why is a lead bend a problem?
 
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Old 09-24-11, 08:17 PM
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Those compression type that insert are not to code if thats what you used.

Lead is an issue because the young plumbers today dont know how to work with it. ( Repair it )

Also since you may be putting force inside the lead with that fitting it probably wont take long to egg it up when and if the toilet gets loose.

Be ready for sewage leaks soon. Cant say it will, but from my experience it wont work for long.

This is all if this is what in fact you did.

Mike NJ
 
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Old 09-24-11, 08:17 PM
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Oh, and here are some photos from the basement.



See that white thing I'm pointing that? That's the PVC pipe that I attached to the flange and just stuck in the bend.





EDIT: Didn't use a compression type. It's pretty much just a PVC pipe that I stuck up into the flange and it's juts dangling into the bend.
 
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Old 09-24-11, 08:39 PM
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Oh my!!!!

The right way is to melt or chisel that lead out of the hub where you have the pvc stuck in. Then use this adapter. Oakum and pour new lead.

PVC to Cast Iron Adapter, 4" # 41740 by Genova Products

Others will tell you to use a donut, but I never used them. It would seemed rigged to me.

The other option is to cut that ell off. But you need to retain that piece of pipe going into that ty. Then add a mission coupling and pipe with PVC. The thing with that is if you screw that pipe up then you need to take the pipe out of the ty hub, which is held in and sealed with lead.

So not sure what you have planned at this stage.

Here is what pouring lead looks like. But, this video shows cast iron pipe. Your pipe is lead so its different. But this pouring of lead is what you need to do if you are going to add a pvc adapter to the hub.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=WIa1sTMenXc
This is what the top of the original lead flange looked like.








Mike NJ
 

Last edited by lawrosa; 09-24-11 at 09:03 PM.
  #8  
Old 09-24-11, 08:44 PM
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Everything you said was pretty much Greek. Oakum? Ty hub? Ell? Huh?

I don't know, what do you think I should do? What are my options?
 
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Old 09-25-11, 01:01 AM
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If you solved the leak with a new flange, leave it alone. Wait until it happens again.
 
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Old 09-25-11, 07:53 AM
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Oakum is a 'rope' that is saturated with a sealant. It is packed into cast iron joints, and then sealed on top with molten lead. Properly applied, it is a leak free joint. (Liquid AND sewer gas)

" TY " is TEE-WYE, and refers to the vertical tee fitting in the cast iron stack, and the part that is a wye that comes off the side.

" ELL " is a 90 elbow.

" HUB " is the wider part of the fittings that the other pipe fits into.

Mike has given you the options. Honestly, if I were you I would seek professional help. I believe your best option would be to have as much as necessary to effect the repair replaced with PVC.

In my opinion, leaving it alone as-is with the PVC flange just 'dangling' in the pipe is absolutely the WRONG thing to do. That joint MUST be LIQUID AND SEWER GAS TIGHT!
 
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Old 09-25-11, 08:35 AM
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I'm not a plumber but I've dealt with this situation. I ended up replacing everything that you show in your pic with PVC. It looks like your main stack is on the right of the photo. I would cut it there and scrap the toilet drain line.
I used Fernco couplings to mate the new PVC drain to the old stack. The only hard part of the job was cutting the old cast iron pipe. I started out using a sawzall but that was slow going. The old school tool for this was a chain cutter and you can probably rent one but I didn't know how to use it and I was afraid to bugger up the pipe and make the job more than it was. I ended up using an angle grinder. It actually worked pretty good.
 
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Old 09-25-11, 09:00 AM
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Yes, he has given me options, but I'm not sure what to tell the plumber tomorrow when I call them. What should I tell them I need done? I'm just worried they'll try to do more than I need just to juice my wallet a little more.

How much should I expect to pay to get this stuff done?

Let me put it this way, if you were me, what would you have them do to solve the situation?
 
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Old 09-25-11, 09:11 AM
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The old school tool for this was a chain cutter and you can probably rent one
Dont look like he has enough pipe for the snapper. ( Chain cutter ) It will be close though. Best bet would be to leave intact and put a pvc adapter in that ellbow. Need to find a guy that pours lead.

Like I said if they want to use a rubber donut I would find someone else.

Just ask the plumber if they know how to pour lead for cast iron hub repair.

I'm just worried they'll try to do more than I need just to juice my wallet a little more
Get an estimate and post back here with what he is going to do. There are a few things he may suggest. Get it all written in ink.

In NJ that repair with a big box truck type company will typicall be $800-$1200. Its really a skilled task and is what it is. But if you find some older retired guy I am sure you can get a cheaper price.

If it was myself doing it for someone I would probably charge around $400.

This is just a comparison so you kind of know what to expect. Your in NY and I think prices are similar.

Mike NJ
 
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Old 09-25-11, 09:41 AM
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Originally Posted by lawrosa View Post
Dont look like he has enough pipe for the snapper. ( Chain cutter ) It will be close though. Best bet would be to leave intact and put a pvc adapter in that ellbow. Need to find a guy that pours lead.

Like I said if they want to use a rubber donut I would find someone else.

Just ask the plumber if they know how to pour lead for cast iron hub repair.



Get an estimate and post back here with what he is going to do. There are a few things he may suggest. Get it all written in ink.

In NJ that repair with a big box truck type company will typicall be $800-$1200. Its really a skilled task and is what it is. But if you find some older retired guy I am sure you can get a cheaper price.

If it was myself doing it for someone I would probably charge around $400.

This is just a comparison so you kind of know what to expect. Your in NY and I think prices are similar.

Mike NJ
Ok, will do. I'll try to avoid the larger companies and stick to more local guys. How many estimates should I get?

The PVC monstrosity I hooked up IS working, so for right now, it'll be my bandaid on a bullet wound. It's a one bathroom house. I'm sure it'll be ok for the time being.
 
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Old 09-25-11, 11:21 AM
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There is nothing wrong with the "donut" repair IF your LOCAL code allows it. I have used donut adapters from cast iron to plastic many times with 100% success, they are a proven technology and the biggest reason why some local codes do not allow them is cronyism between the elected officials that would approve them and the politically-connected people that want everything done by certain professionals.

I would remove the cast iron street ell and the fitter (everything back to the sanitary tee or TY as Mike calls it) and install the donut in the sanitary tee. Run plastic from there and you're done. (Yes, it is a little more involved but not much.)
 
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Old 09-26-11, 06:51 PM
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I have a plumber coming over Wednesday to give me an estimate. He did work on my sink before and charged way under what I thought it was going to cost. If he gives me an estimate in the ballpark of the $400 that was suggested here, I'll probably just have him do it. If it's way way off, I'll get a second estimate.
 
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Old 09-26-11, 06:58 PM
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Great. Let us know. Tak pics of the after. I always like to see the final outcome, but so many dont post back.

Mike NJ
 
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Old 09-26-11, 08:11 PM
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You have my word that I'll post back! Hopefully it'll be of some help to future DIY amateurs stuck in the same situation.
 
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Old 09-28-11, 08:48 AM
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This is what was done. Cost me $300.

 
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Old 09-28-11, 10:59 AM
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Great that it was only $300. How do you feel about it?

I guess I will nit pick but I dont want you to feel bad about it.

I assume he cut the cast iron pipe and left that small piece of pipe so he could connect that fernco.

Thats the wrong fitting and not to code as far as I know. It works but IMO if your going to do the work use the right fitting.

Cast iron to PVC mission coupling/ no hub is the correct fitting. See link below. As far as I know thats the code everywhere.

You would need a C33. 3" cast to 3" pvc. It looks all 3" in the pic.

Mission Rubber Products.html

This fittng keep the internals of where the cast and pvc butt togther at the same level. Even though they are both called 3" they are different size pipe. What happens is that set up promotes clogging because now the pipes are at twn different levels. Also since he used a regular fernco, and trying to clamp aroung the off sized cast, this is where they leak, and clogg.

Brings me to my next issue of adding that clean out.

IMO what the heck are you going to do with a 3" clean out 6 ft off the floor? Enough said on that......

OK again please dont feel bad. It is what it is. Hopefully with the link I posted, if others need to do this in thier home the correct fitting will be used.

Mike NJ
 
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Old 09-28-11, 11:19 AM
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So is there nothing I can do about it then? I don't want to get yet another person in here.

Just to note, the other option was to do a bypass thing where it entered the pipe going into the floor lower down. That seemed like a bad idea.

I don't know. I'm about ready to just give up on this.

Also...when you say not to code...does that mean I'm going to have to get the thing fixed before I sell the house?! UGHHHHHHHHH.
 
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Old 09-28-11, 01:58 PM
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Ahh... well it depends on the inspectors and how lax they are in your area.

Why you moving soon???

Well you could call that guy back and ask him. Just say you think a no-hub fitting is supposed to go there. He should fix it IMO. Will not hurt. See ehat he says and post back.

I will find the code for you.

Mike NJ
 
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Old 09-28-11, 02:01 PM
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I plan on moving in the next couple years. Tired of paying NY taxes.

It's fine. The thing seems solid enough. If it's an issue when it's time to leave, then I'll have it fixed. I'm done trying to find the perfect solution for this thing. If it works, then it works. If not...well...it has a six month warranty.
 
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Old 09-28-11, 02:17 PM
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I plan on moving in the next couple years. Tired of paying NY taxes.
Well dont move to NJ. Taxes are higher here.

PA is cheaper if you like the area. I would like to go but the admiral doesnt want to move. Im just the captain.

If it was my decision SC or GA looks good. My buddy moved to SC and is paying $900 yr taxes. They have that royalty thing with cars and stuff but its still way cheaper.


Mike NJ
 
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Old 09-28-11, 02:28 PM
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PA was what I had in mind. I grew up in NY on the border so I'll be closer to family that way.

NJ is off the list too. I'm also moving because of the restrictive gun laws. NJ would be a case of out of the frying pan, into the fire I think.

Thanks for your help lawrosa! I'm bummed it isn't the perfect solution, but it's going to have to do. If you ever find yourself traveling up towards Syracuse for whatever reason, let me know and I'll have a job for you.
 
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Old 09-28-11, 02:53 PM
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If you ever find yourself traveling up towards Syracuse for whatever reason, let me know and I'll have a job for you.
It will cost you a 6 pack and good conversation.

Closest I got to Syracuse was through Albany on the way to Laconia last year. 10 hours with one stop for fuel on a Wideglide. Dont recommend it for the soft in the saddle types...LOL.

Mike NJ
 
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Old 09-28-11, 08:01 PM
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Is the Fernco joining 3" PVC to 4" cast iron? That's what it looks like to me but it's hard to tell in the photo. If so that's why the guy used what appears to be a 4X3 coupling. I don't see how that can't be code. Then again, I'm not a plumber. I know that a banded coupling would be preferred but I've never seen one with a hub.

The cleanout puzzles me. The run is too short for it to be required by code and it looks as if a closet bend would have been all that was needed.
 
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Old 09-29-11, 04:17 PM
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Maybe that's the only fitting he had on the truck?

Even though it's up high, maybe there was no cleanout at all lower on the pipe and he thought that if he got a call back down the road at least he had SOMETHING to run his snake into?

I mean 6' off the floor is better than nothing, right?
 
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Old 09-29-11, 06:20 PM
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That is a sanitary tee "on its back" and that position is prohibited by some codes and poor practice in all codes. Either a long radius ell or a closet bend should have been used. The cleanout in that position will more likely as not collect waste rather than serve as a point to clear it. Most plumbers and drain cleaners would simply lift the toilet and clean the line rather than use that (useless, in my opinion) cleanout.

The Fernco coupling is just plain wrong. Was this a licensed plumber or a handyman that does plumbing?
 
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