Hello , I am in the process of a bathroom remodel on a very old home built roughly 1850 with no idea of the year of the plumbing. The toilet was removed from the second floor bathroom while we are replacing water supply pipes to the second floor and replacing the floor coverings.
The toilet flange was almost completely missing with nothing to hold the toilet or even support a under mount flange repair ring. I can confirm the lateral waste elbow pipe is cast iron and the flange appeared to be brass set in lead ¼” thick. The remaining portion of the brass sleeve that was set in the lead rolled out easily seeing the flange was gone. I may have made a mistake taking out the remains o the brass flange but with no top or even a lip to connect a repair ring under, I felt it was the best option. I have attached pictures of the drain system and what I am left with. I am hoping that the press fit flange I purchased can be cut down to correct length and pressed into the lead filled cast iron hub.
Does this sound like it should seal ok once the press fit flange is screwed down to the finished floor?
The cast iron pipe right under the toilet has the lead filled hub that is only about 1.75” of smooth lead surface before the elbow transitions to the right. The three rib seal on the press fit flange is approx. 1.5” so it should bottom all inside the lead filled bell.
The best thing I take from reading would be to have the cast iron waste arm replaced with a PVC type but funds are not here for a plumber unfortunately as we were hoping for an easy toilet replacement as we had with our other bathroom.
Any help will be greatly appreciated.
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Hi,

That flange you purchased is not to code as far as I know. You are looking for trouble trying to use that in a hub.

I only see two choices.

1. Call a pro that can pour lead and install a new piece of pipe/flange in the hub.
2. Since the floor is open snap the line with a snapping tool somewhere before the next hub. Then use a mission.no hub fitting to convert to PVC.

#2 you may be able to do yourself, but I do not know your skillset.

Here is what the plumber will do if #1 is chosen. Its like yours but the plumber will need to add a small piece of pipe cast or PVC, or a new lead horn.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WIa1sTMenXc&feature=player_embedded They do make donuts for the hub, but that hub will need to be cleaned off all lead. I don't recommend them at all. I don't think they are allowed everywhere. I believe NJ they are not but I would need to check code. ( I was never allowed to use them)

 

Here are ways to cut cast iron.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zei2c_moHIQ&feature=player_embedded

 

I appreciate the reply and was hoping this could be easier. Funds are real tight right now and the bathroom may need to wait i guess. The flange and pipe that came out appeared to be very thin brass and pealed away from the lead easily, and now under closer inspection I believe it may have just been sweated in with lead and there is no oakum involved at all. I found a doughnut style for 4" bell pipe that I thought I could use if I removed the lead from the bell end. However, I need to inspect it closer as I though it was 1/4" thick lead originally and now it may only be a thin amount used to sweat fit the original brass piece. Is that possible in your experience that it could have just been sweat fit and not poured lead? Did they or do they make sweat fit toilet flanges anymore? The video you showed is very helpful but a very different type than my set up. That is straight pipe with a flange around the outside and mine is a bell end. I understand that the oakum and lead was used in both, but mine appears to be no oakum in the bottom. I attached pictures in hopes it helps. Thanks again. First image is of the 4" pvc pipe and doughnut I was hoping would work.

Edit it is a poured lead joint! Cleaning it up now to see how it looks. Will post new picture soon.
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Well I have seen lots of things old timers have done and it could of been one of these installed in there. Of course shorter and cut to floor height.

This gets sweated inside and out with lead solder. We used to make them from old lead bends and peen it over ourselves.




Now that whole ell for the toilet in your pic looks like it may not be a normal hub. I say this because I see the ell/pipe come up inside that fitting. Possibly it was a specialty fittng of the day. A type of flange bushing of some sort with the toilet ell that may have been hub less by design. Hubs are much deeper then what you show.

Now a old timer may tell you off the top of their head but I only know from what I worked with in the field at a repair level.

And since I feel this is not a normal hub I would shy away from any type of donut. It will just be trouble. ( Leaks)

This would be your best bet if you must use some type of donut. These are expansion flanges. They dont just push in. You actually ratchet 3 bolts to expand the seal. They do have them in various heights.



Again, your best option IMO is to replace with PVC.

 

Well thanks again, I need to take back what I said earlier. This is does appear to have about 1/4" of lead around the previous flange pipe. The problem with the compression type expansion flange is I only can bring the flange about 1" above the hub and those are too deep. I have only seen them with a 5" tail or longer. When I just went up and started cleaning the rusty cast iron, i noticed the thickness of the lead/whatever they used is about 1/4" or a little more. The rust from the top of the hub had spread over the lead and made it look rusty which Tricked me into thinking the lead was only thin.

 

The ell/pipe looks to me as if it is just a hub end built on the pipe not a fitting added to the ell. I believe it is all one piece. The problem I have understanding potential leaks, is that many times I hear people suggest removing the pipe in question and running a new pvc pipe into my existing T to the right in picture with a donut. That would be a horizontal connection that in my mind would be more prone to leaks than a donut in vertical setup. With the 4" pvc and donut I was hopng to
1) clean out the lead surround 2) clean the inside surface of the ci hub/bell 3) Press in the 4" pvc with the ferco donut 4) Using a 3" Flange that transitions inside of the 4" pvc.
This would allow me to use standard 4" pvc cut to a short height and finish with the inside mount flange glue fit. With your concern over the donut and my type of pipe I will look for the expansion type in other lengths. so far I have only seen Oatley that is only offered in one depth.

 

Thoroughly wire brush the top of that hub. I'd be quite surprised if it wasn't a poured lead joint. You can probably collapse the lead and remove it along with the oakum if you use a cold chisel or old screwdriver on the outer edge of the lead and beat it towards the center. Tie some string on a rag and stuff it down the pipe first, the string is to pull the rag out in case it gets shoved too far down the pipe so make it strong and long.

 

Thank you as well, and yes I corrected my stand on that, it is a poured lead joint. I can tell it is approx 1/4" thick around inside of the brass pipe i took out. I have no problem in removing the lead, but what to use for the closet flange after I get it out. I dont know how they poured lead as the flange was only about an inch over the top of the hub, which would block me from pouring lead in the gap under the flange? Thanks again.

It also appears to have been done with no oakum as the lead goes straight to the bottom of the joint and only lead and metal can be seen. Unless the lead ran inside totally covering the oakum from view.

 

You won't see the oakum until you pry the lead out. Depending on how high your finished floor will be you just might be able to use a rubber donut in that hub along with PVC or ABC pipe and a flange of the same material. Personally, I'd do as Mike suggests and remove the horizontal and use a Mission (banded) rubber coupler to plastic pipe or else remove the horizontal back to the next hub and use a donut and then repipe with plastic. Remember, the flange assembly goes on top of the finished floor.

 

Well here is the updated picture. It is a brass pipe (the remains of the removed closet flange) inside the ci bell/hub. The inside dimensions of the brass section that is still in the ci pipe are 4 1/8th inch by approx 1 1/2" deep of smooth surface. Now the question 1) is if the push tite flange is ok to use inside the remaining brass pipe? 2) would I be better to remove the lead and brass pipe and use a donut around 4" pvc section inside the ci hub (4 7/8" inside diameter) with a glue inside flange on top of the pvc.

I took pictures under the floor boards and the hub is not a fitting on the pipe it is an actual bell type hub on the closet bend with 2 side outlets (no longer being used.) There is very limited height between the top of the hub and the floor so space is close. I dont see how a closet flange could be lead fit with maybe 1 1/4" Max between the top of the hub and the bottom of the flange.
Thaanks again

 

I missed your reply while typing. I am not challenging the suggestion but how is a donut in the tee hub on the right side in the photo better horizontally than a donut vertically in the hub on the ell? Is it due to the depth of the hub? I m nervous about moving any of the very old connections or I would cut of the ell on its way to the T in the picture and use a no hub connection to transition to pvc to the toilet. My fear is then the lead seal in the T starts leaking... Thanks again.

 

To pour lead in a tight space is not the issue. I would assume the right iron would be needed to caulk the joint.

I would have used this.





You need to get that lead out first. Do that and post back then we can see what you have.

From there we can better guide you. Its a very shallow hub though if what you say is true.

 

I will do that tomorrow, I just didnt remove it in the event the inside brass pipe would be a suitable sealing surface for the push tight flange. I guess that idea is a no go , so I will pull the lead out and the brass pipe and post a new picture. Thanks again.

 

I'm thinking you didn't have any brass pipe but a brass ferrule. The ferrule was to hold the sheet lead in place while the seal was poured and then the sheet lead was flanged for the toilet.

 

That is very possible, the top of the flange was almost all gone from many years of use rocking etc. The inside piece is brass there now so I assumed the remaining pieces on the top was brass as well. The edge of the brass piece that remains inside did have a lip for sure on top. I trimmed the small pieces of the lip off when I finished rolling the ruined half remaining flange in. Would you say I should remove the lead by drilling close holes between the ferrule and the hub as they do to remove a lead fit pipe and pull it out?

 

While it might be necessary to drill a couple of holes in the lead, if the brass is as thin as I think it is you should be able to just use a cold chisel at the outside perimeter of the lead and collapse it inward. Use a big hammer and hit it smartly, don't just tap it. Stuff a rag down the pipe as I previously described.

 

A ferrule Furd? C would be what I would think what was there. Thats brass with a lead bottom.




I am not so sure this would have been an Oakum joint. I think the oakum would be visible in the hub.

But the above may have been inserted into the hub and lead poured around this. Leaving lead on both sides?

I really don't know, now and am guessing....LOL

 

Honestly, I'm grasping at straws. I've never seen a closet bend like that so close to the sub floor. The ones I've seen usually have several inches of sheet lead formed into a pipe and then flanged over the finish floor.

 

side of pipe

brass pipe in hub

donut in hub

donut side view

pipe with donut will barely start into hub very tight not sure if it will work as one rib will be outside the hub even if it bottoms out in the hub. Only tree ribs will be in the hub?

Depth of hub to bottom lip 1 5/8" or just under 1 3/4"....

inside of hub empty

brass pipe out of hub...very heavy if just a furrule

Flat bottom of brass pipe that sat on inside bottom lip of the hub... some lead still attached that ran under when they fiitted it

So there it is , hopefully this helps. It was poured lead with possible oakum under it but it had no body at all to it , just very black and loose with no fibers at all. Thanks again.

 

If you are going to use that donust I would cut a rib off so it sits flush. Donut then goes in first then fit pipe. Yes pipe will be very hard to get in. You may be best tapping a short piece in with rubber mallet.

Then cut to length and glue an inside glue flange. This fits inside the pipe. You will not be losing size because I believe that is 4" right?

 

That is correct the main line is 4" and the pvc I have is 4" the closet flange is a combo for inside 4" pvc glue type or outside glue over 3" that will allow me to keep the pipe short and very close to the rim of the donut keeping the flange tight to the finished floor. I will then secure the flange with screws to the sub-floor as required.

Can I use a lube on the pipe or inside of the donut to help the fit? I read some where that beveling the starting edge of the pipe will help getting it in the donut?

 

Do not use any petroleum based products. Use a vegetable oil or olive oil.

But wait for a second opinion just to make sure.

yes trim the edge if it helps.

 

Definitely chamfer the end of the pipe that is to enter the donut. Lube it up well with liquid dishwashing detergent (Not dishwasher detergent) or some other water soluble lubricant. K-Y jelly is good but don't use Vaseline. It WILL be difficult to push the pipe into place.

 

Thanks for the great tips, from both of you. I plan on doing it in a little while, have to get some family stuff done first. Do you suggest anything in the way of sealant on the outside of the donut where it meets the hub inside or at the rim? I cleaned the inside of the cast iron hub ,just by scraping off the residue and lightly wire brushed. Do I need to sand it perfectly smooth or does the donut take up the imperfections ? I have dishwashing liquid for lube for pipe to inside of the donut. I will chamfer slightly and not completely bevel the edge to ease the start of the pipe into the donut. Thanks again for all your help. This looks like it will be tighter seal than I ever would have got with the push tite set up in the brass pipe.

 

I just cleaned up the hub and placed the donut inside after trimming it to sit in the bottom inside ledge and rim on top. I chamfered the end of the pipe, lubed it with dishwashing liquid and proceeded to work it in the hub. The one thing I forgot to do was make a mark on the outside for reference as to how deep it should go in. I worked it in and it went in very hard even lubed well, but wont go to the very bottom of the hub. It appears to have stopped about 1/2" from the bottom and it wont budge. I have the pipe at 2' length for help with installation, and even sat on the top of the pipe to apply weight as I worked it in. Any thoughts as to getting in to seat, or is
1 1/4" fair. I am wishing to get it to the bottom if I can but I can not go further or remove at this point. I placed a measure tape into the pipe on the lower edge of the pipe and then to the bottom ledge of the hub to determine I still have 1/2" yet to go in. I thought if I drilled a hole through each side of the pipe up away from the floor , I could put a T bar through to possibly twist the pipe as I apply pressure downward possibly getting it in further...

 

Clean up the cast iron so there are no loose particles, it doesn't need to be shiny clean. No sealant of any kind is necessary, just a little lubricant on the PVC.

I guess I was too late in answering, too many personal problems today. Anyway, you're fine with the PVC in that far, it doesn't need to bottom out.

 

Thanks so much I appreciate all the help I received from you and everyone. You have been more than responsive to all replies. This has been a learning experience for me even though I have typically no problem with newer more common designs this was out of my comfort zone at first. I hope the rest of your day goes better. Thanks a million.

 

Great job and looks good. Glad we could help.

Have a great day.