Dishwasher inlet line recommendation - hose or pipe?

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Old 10-27-16, 09:07 AM
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Dishwasher inlet line recommendation - hose or pipe?

We just removed our 12 year old dishwasher after black smoke came off the circuit board. That's a good life, right?

So hooking up the new one and my paranoia.... I've had loads of bad experiences with water in homes.

The wood under the old dishwasher was perfectly dry. But I got a plastic pan to go under the new dishwasher - interesting - rather than have a lip on 4 sides, it's open on 1 side that will cause a puddle in front of the machine / in the kitchen so you notice there's a problem.

Anyway, the key question - there's flexible copper water line pipe already there for the old machine.

I haven't seen if the new machine input is near where the copper pipe ends or if I can move this pipe to reach but..... would you use copper pipe or flexible, steel braided hose for the inlet line?

The install manual (Kitchenaid machine) says either will work. If you just said hose is good, the manual says if you use braided hose, mark your calendar and replace the hose after 5 years. Yeah, certainly can't hurt to do that. but kinda makes copper pipe a better answer? (doesn't need to be replaced every so often). more trouble at install, but then you are done, vs. an easier install but more maintenance over the years? Yeah, I likely won't change after 5 years : ) as much as I started this saying I had bad experiences with water in homes : )
 
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Old 10-27-16, 11:19 AM
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I've lived in my present house for almost seventeen years. I replaced the dishwasher about two-maybe three years after moving in and I used a flexible hose with stainless steel outer braid. I have never changed it nor even "inspected" it in its full length. That is at least twice as long as your source says to change the hose. I don't lose any sleep over the issue and I don't plan to do anything different in the near future.

But that's me. The hose could fail five minutes from now or it may last until long after I fail, hopefully no time soon.

However, every dishwasher I have seen uses a "compression" style inlet connector. Used with copper piping these have a higher failure rate (still very low) than I am comfortable with and if I had copper I would inspect the connections on a more regular basis.

I guess it comes down to, "You pay your money and you take your chances." I prefer to take my chances with the hose.
 
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Old 10-27-16, 11:20 AM
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Here is some different types. I would use the stainless type.
https://www.lowes.com/search?searchT...sher+fill+line
 
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Old 10-27-16, 11:35 AM
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Agreed, use the SS braided stuff. You can get the fail safe braided stuff that will shut down flow if it see's a vast or sudden change in pressure. That tray is a good idea, but better still use a water alarm. Place it in the front center or to the left or right. I prefer the right side since a leak is more likely at the overflow float valve rather than the inlet valve on the left. Once the inlet valve connection is made and sealed, there is very little reason for it to leak even if the valve fails.
 
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Old 10-27-16, 11:50 AM
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THANKS!!!

pugsi - I guess you including the link suggests you woudl go with hose?

Furd - you prefer hose over copper tubing!? I got under the sink and I see the copper tubing is sweated onto the plumbing. I think it will reach the inlet on the new machine. But I also just figured out - the existing tubing won't go onto that bigger L shaped adapter.

Why does the washer have a relatively huge garden hose size inlet... and the 'standard' install kits include a reducer to a straw diameter?! : )

So now 2 choices:

deal with cutting off the copper tubing under the sink and put on a compression fitting to hook up to the hose?

or

go with (the existing) copper tubing against your recommendations... and figure how to adapt / shrink it to connect to the inlet.

Advice?

ps - what's the pros / cons about attaching pictures 'inline'?

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Old 10-27-16, 12:02 PM
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Norm - thanks also! You posted as I was typing. Fail safe hose?! Nice! I saw once a gadget that you'd setup on your house shutoff valve - it would know your schedule I think. If it saw too much flow at the wrong times or for too long, it wou mechanically turn your shutoff valve (so there was nothing to do with cutting pipes, etc?) A clip on device can detect water flow inside a pipe?

As I mentioned, I have a paranoia about water in the house.

Always wanted to get something like that. At my parents house years ago I noticed on a bathroom sink on 2nd floor (2 knob faucet) that the valve seemed wobbly but didn't think about it. My dad came home and water was coming out of that - the knob / mechanism had unscrewed over time and finally (when no one was home) blew the knob out and water rained down to the basement for a while till he got home. (when we looked, only 1 faucet knob was there.... the other side had a hole where the mechanism / valve stem would normally screw in.

I've posted here about problems with drips when making compression connections and not knowing how tight to crank down on the connection / hose

We turn off the water main when going away for a weekend or longer, even when there's no chance of freezing

I have an admittedly jury rigged system for our water softener - the system didn't seem to have enough lift to get the waste water to the sewer drain line near the ceiling of the basement 20' away. So it dumps into a garbage can which has a sump pump. If (when) the pump fails or power connection gets undone, the water overflows the garbage can. I've had that a couple times over the years : )
 
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Old 10-27-16, 12:14 PM
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That copper line will work as long as the fitting on end is same as dishwasher. Fitting on copper can be changed but if you have to do that I would replace line to just below sweat on fitting unless you are comfortable with sweating copper. Reason I would change copper is hard to work with without kinking line.
 
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Old 10-27-16, 12:21 PM
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The delivery guy was talking about using the old L to mate to the old tubing (would you reuse a ferrule / compression fitting?) but I lost him when he described where to go from there : )

Yes, I need something to go from that copper tubing to the L that came with the kit that will mate up to the inlet.

I googled the part number for this instlal kit (WX28X326) but can't find anything on how to actually use it / what each part is for.

The delivery guy was stressing the need for teflon tape. Would you use teflon? On straight threads? NPT? neither?
 
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Old 10-27-16, 12:24 PM
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a bit of clarification. Most likely others will be posting at the same time as I.

This is the fail safe or or flood safe connector line.

http://media.wattswater.com/F-FloodSafe.pdf

Personally I do not like them. Too many failures and false shutdowns. You must dis-connect the line to reset it.

You do not want to use the large hose (garden style) connector, throw it out. Use the small right angle unit. Use Teflon tape or pipe dope to seal the connections.

The metal furrel will go on the small end. But you don't need it or the nut. The ss braided hose (be it flood safe or not) will use an "O" ring to seal. Make it hand tight, then one quarter turn more.

No tape or dope on the supply line end with "O" ring. If need be you can extend the SS braided hose by connecting two together. This will allow you to pull out the DW if and when you need to do repair.
 
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Old 10-27-16, 12:28 PM
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Yes, for the connection to the appliance, be it a clothes washer, a dishwasher or a refrigerator/icemaker I prefer hose over copper tubing. The reason is vibration. Vibration, no matter how little, will eventually "work harden" copper tubing and when that happens the tubing becomes brittle.

Moving the dishwasher into (or out of) the undercounter space stresses the tubing and especially the point of connection unless one is very careful. It may not visibly leak at the time of installation but it CAN develop a small leak over time. Look at the whitish deposits around the ferrule of your existing tubing, that is caused by a leak. Over-tightening a compression nut can under some circumstances cause the ferrule to nick the tubing, creating a weak spot that combined with vibration over time may develop into a leak or, worst case scenario, actually break the tubing. It is difficult for someone who does not work with compression fittings on a regular basis to know just how tight to make it without over-tightening. I've probably made up a thousand compression joints in my life but it has been more than ten years since I was doing it on a regular basis and I sure wouldn't call myself an expert anymore.

I don't know why they include the garden hose adapter fitting in the supply line kits unless it is to allow connection to what would normally be a clothes washer connection. Dishwashers use about three to five gallons of water at any one time so they don't need high-flow water connections. Filling is generally on a timed basis with a float switch override. Some dishwashers have the ability to change the fill timing to ensure the proper amount of water is used. I can't tell by the pictures which nut/ferrule combination may fit on what elbow, sorry.


Exactly how is the copper connected under the sink? It should have its own shut-off valve independent of the sink faucet.

One remark about the hoses that shut off if there is an excessive flow; they usually do not shut off completely but allow a trickle flow so don't use them thinking it will all but eliminate damage and clean-up if it breaks. Okay, TWO remarks. The other is that sometimes the shut-off device will activate with sudden changes in flow. This is not uncommon with certain toilet fill valves that will work on the first flush and then very slowly refill the tank on subsequent flushes until the safety device is reset by turning off the supply and turning it back on. With a dishwasher this could make operation impossible.
 
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Old 10-27-16, 12:28 PM
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old L to mate to the old tubing
Not sure what you are talking about. If you use old copper I would get a new compression fitting and cut off the old one. Teflon tape not necessary as seal in the compression sleeve.
 
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Old 10-27-16, 01:45 PM
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Thank you all! It's really nice having you out there for the information and reassurances!

throw out the garden hose adapter - actually, the dishwasher's inlet (as much as you are saying it uses minimal amount of water - thanks for that bit of info) does have a garden hose size connector
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(maybe not the exact size / threads) but that large L adapter does mate to the dishwasher.

I always think of copper pipe as being impervious / best way to go. You go into old houses and there's the (likely) original copper pipes. Romex plastic can dry out, right?

I say that and think how the trap under my sink was metal (copper? brass?) and rotted away and I put in plastic trap. And a pipe on the waste end of the toilet got a thin spot. So what do I know.

Anyway, thanks for that info about the vibrations, etc.

the copper tubing is sweated onto an adapter then to the copper pipe, through it's own shutoff valve then to the hot line of the faucet.

I'll off to home depot now for my 1st of an average of 3 trips for any given project. I'll be looking at this thread on my phone.

But I envision cutting off the tubing / adapter under the sink, getting a compression fitting from the copper pipe to threads that mate with the hose, use the hose to the garden hose L adapter into the washer. I have a pipe cutter, just wonder if I can get it all the way around the pipe (it's close to the wall).

any other info / advice, I am listening!
 
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Old 10-27-16, 02:00 PM
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OK, then you must use the hose adapter. But you're going get SS braided flex hose and use the "O" ring fittings. Not the bass furrel or the nuts.

You can cut off (or un-solder) that copper tubing coming off the valve and use a shark-bite coupling or solder on an adapter or even a compression adapter that will give a 1/2 copper to a 3/8 compression fitting such as this

 
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Old 10-27-16, 04:11 PM
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I deleted my post because you already have the plan and I didn't read the entire thread.
Cut the copper as far below the valve as possible using a mini tube cutter, hacksaw or oscillating saw. Saw cut will need more cleaning. Install a standard straight compression valve or sharkbite valve.
For the 'new style DW connector', tighten hand tight plus one full turn with pliers.
Use a flex line as advised and follow instructions, rubber washer is 1/4 turn past hand tight, plastic washer is hand tight only. Don't be tempted to overtighten these compression fittings, it usually causes immediate leaks.
 
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Old 10-27-16, 09:44 PM
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Again, thank you all! I actually did this project with 1 trip to Home Depot! A first for me!

The guy at home depot when I asked his thoughts on what to do under the sink, he was adamant about using sharkbite. You guys mentioned it but I've never done anything with them. I always thought that was a connection that needs a special tool.

WOW. while installing it and not having a leak was GREAT, I just cant get past - there's an oring in there. that's what's making the seal? Can't be as good as solder? but better than compression fitting?

He got me a part with a 1/4 turn shutoff valve. Really nice product for speed / ease of connecting. And no leak - something I mentioned I have issues with with compression fittings.

and he showed me the 'cowl' that fits on the sharkbite end to pretty up the connection and it was c shaped, not a full circle.... didn't realize till later looking at the graphics on the bag that it's also the disassembly tool : )

I did disassemble and reassembled (I saw on a video / their website saying you can take out the insert - it's not needed for copper. So I did that.

In some videos of using sharkbite, there's an audible click? I didn't get that on the first or other times I made the connection. it seems to be in far enough. Is a click always needed?

Thanks you to everyone for your help!
 
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Old 10-28-16, 06:50 AM
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Good Job.
I've never heard of an audible click. The way to ensure the sharkbite is fully inserted is to mark the pipe 3/4" - 7/8" back before pushing on the fitting.
I would not recommend dissembling the valve to remove the insert, it's not necessary.
 
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Old 10-28-16, 07:21 AM
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Handyone: Again, thank you soooo much!

I think I heard clicks in videos and guys were mentioning the click. But yeah, no mention of it on the sharkbite website.

Yes, I did the depth mark.

I did disassemble to remove the insert - thinking that might get the click. and such a new (to me) and interesting device, I wanted to experiment (yeah, at the risk of causing problems.), and was intrigued that the 'decorative cowl' is also the disassembly tool. But no leaks even after disassembly / reassembly.

So as a way to make durable, reliable, long term, leak free, quality connections in copper plumbing, care to rank things like sweating, sharkbite, compression on some sort of a 1 - 10 scale? (I guess an uncut pipe would be a 10)

Yeah, there's other things I'm ignoring here - ease of install, cost, etc. With my concern for leaks / want to be able to do it and forget it, the long term quality for me is the most important.

I WAS really impressed with the ease of install and that I got it leak free on the first try, but looking into sharkbites, they do have that oring which I would think would deteriorate before molten metal (solder).
 
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Old 10-28-16, 10:07 AM
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care to rank things like sweating, sharkbite, compression on some sort of a 1 - 10 scale?
I use sharkbites only on occasion but trust them 100% if that makes any sense.

Sharkbite is only one type or brand of push-on fitting. Do a search for john guest fittings, they are used in water filter plumbing and expensive cars and are trusted.
 
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Old 10-28-16, 12:05 PM
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An uncut pipe is a ten. A properly made (i.e cut, deburred, cleaned and fluxed) silver-soldered joint would be a nine. A properly made soft-soldered joint would be an eight+. A properly made flared joint would be an eight. A properly made compression joint, using high quality American made fittings with two-piece ferrules (expensive$) would be an eight-. A properly made push-fit (Sharkbite and other brands) would be a seven to eight-. A compression joint made with commonly available (read, Communist Asian country of manufacture) fittings is no better than a five under the best of conditions. A joint made with rubber slip washers (uncommon these days) is a two.

All of the above is my opinion, take it as you like.
 
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