Sudden Water Hammer with Flapperless Niagra/Glacier Bay Toilet

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Old 06-26-17, 07:46 AM
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Sudden Water Hammer with Flapperless Niagra/Glacier Bay Toilet

Two weeks ago the fill valve on my flapperless Niagra/Glacier Bay Toilet stopped letting any water into fill tank. So I removed the entire fill valve assembly and ordered a replacement from Home Depot (Fluidmaster 703A). Took a week to get new one so I just filled plastic dump bucket by turning on valve at the wall and then turning off when full (see pic). I only have one toilet in home so that is what I had to do.

While I was waiting for new fill valve, I noticed development of WATER HAMMER between wall shut off valve up through copper supply tube attached to toilet tank (no where else in house). I would turn off shut off valve and turn it back on and WATER HAMMER returned. I tried barely opening the shut off valve and it still went bonkers. I elevated the copper supply tube inside the tank slightly and put a clothes pin on end to keep the copper tubing from touching the plastic dump bucket. This totally solved the water hammer problem.

Then the new fill valve arrived and I immediately installed (just attached with plastic lock nut at end of copper supply tube. Wonderful. I no longer had to turn the water shutoff valve on and off to fill tank for each flush. The new flush valve was allowing the plastic dump bucket to overflow and not shut the water off. Doesn't give any instructions on how to adjust water level. So I just lowered the assembly by bending copper down slightly (remember, I elevated it to stop water hammer in absence of fill valve). The only instructions with new fill valve was to be sure the assembly was level when installed.

But then serious water hammer developed within a day. Can't even fill the tank without that horrible knocking. It is a brand new fill valve so I suspect I need to replace the shutoff valve at the wall. I replaced most of my shutoff valves in the house when I first moved in last year with quarter turn valves. But was unable to replace the toilet shutoff valve because I couldn't get the lock nut loosened to replace it.

The failure of tank fill valve and subsequent water hammer at shutoff valve leads me to the conclusion that I need to replace the shutoff valve to the toilet. My week of constantly turning that valve on and off may off caused the death of an old valve. Especially since water hammer continued even without a fill valve present.

I read a lot about draining all the water out of plumbing and refilling and that sometimes solves water hammer. But most people say water hammer returns in a few days. When I elevated the copper supply tube slightly in the tank, it totally solved water hammer. I had to bend it down slightly with new fill valve so the bucket wouldn't overflow and water keep running and now I have water hammer again.

Anyone have ideas before I struggle to get off the very tight lock nut to replace valve. Also, any ideas on how to get that lock nut loosened would be great. Thanks.

I really hate this toilet and plan to replace it when funds available. It is a 3.8 gallon tank retrofitted with this plastic bucket to 1.2 gallons. The flush handle turns the bucket 90 degrees forward to dump water into bowl. The flush is so weak it takes 5-6 flushes which saves NO water. I was thinking about getting a Toto Drake but now that I'm researching WATER HAMMER issues, I see the high pressures with Toto causing serious water hammer problems for many people. So maybe I'll replace this Chinese POS with an American Standard Champion.
 
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Old 06-26-17, 04:35 PM
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I've never seen that retrofit. Is it really needed? What if you return to the original design?
 
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Old 06-26-17, 05:04 PM
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I didn't read the entire post but I would advise changing the angle stops.
Restricted flow through a valve can cause many problems. The valve can be restricted by being not fully open or an old disintegrated washer that is blocking the supply line.
I work on kitchens and rarely see an old valve that "works". Some of them you don't even want to try to turn off.
 
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Old 06-26-17, 07:50 PM
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Flapperless retrofit and 1.6 gallon limit law

The law in 1992 said all toilets installed in US must be 1.6 gallon tank or less. So I assume there were a lot of "illegal tanks" in stock. My plumber said he has seen many odd retrofits but he had never seen this particular approach. Some were much worse, like lining the tank with styrofoam to cut volume down to 1.6 gallons. The chlorinated city water just dissolved the styrofoam.

This house was built in 1993 so that explains the retrofit being present. I actually considered converting it back to standard flush with 3.8 gallons. But they drilled big holes in the side of the tank to hinge the plastic bucket. It is not illegal to have a toilet tank in your home with volume greater than 1.6 gallons. For a while, larger old used tanks were sold at a premium until the technology for 1.6 gallons improved for decent flushes. But when you sell your house, all the toilets must be up to code (i.e., 1.6 gallons or less). My sister recently sold the home she raised all her kids in (kids are in their late 30s now). She had to replace 5 toilets before they could close on the sale.
 
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