Water On the Floor Under Toilet---Replaced Rings


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Old 06-28-22, 09:35 AM
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Water On the Floor Under Toilet---Replaced Rings

I think I need to say that in my 74 years I have replaced many wax rings. But this one has me stumped. I bought this house a few years ago and discovered water on the floor under and around the toilet. I pulled the toilet and found that the PVC flange was cracked where the right side bolt fit. So I installed this part:
Using a wax ring under the part as instructed. That was two years ago. Three days ago it was leaking again. I pulled the toilet and everything seemed right except maybe the outlet on the bottom of the toilet may not have been centered in the blue rubber funnel thing. It wasn't far off and it seemed the water should have all passed through it.
I did some more inspecting and found that maybe the outlet didn't go far enough into the blue funnel because of some ridges formed into the bottom of the toilet. They could have held the toilet above the funnel.
So I replaced the wax ring under that part and then put another wax ring on top of the part so the toilet should form a seal to the part.
Today it is leaking again.

Any ideas why? To tell the truth, I don't understand why wax rings are needed. Why doesn't the water from the toilet just shoot down the drain? But they are defiantly needed...I'll concede that.
 

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06-28-22, 11:44 AM
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I absolutely hate wax rings... but under the right circumstances they can work for decades without trouble.

10+ years ago I started an experiment with my rental properties where I tried every wax ring alternative on the market and toilet flange repair gizmos. The experiment ended several years ago with every product failing. Every flange repair gizmo rusted out or bent. Every wax substitute (foam squishy, adhesive mounted funnel...) all failed. So, I'm back to a solid floor with a toilet flange in good condition and an old fashioned wax ring.
 
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Old 06-28-22, 09:50 AM
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Anytime I have ever needed to replace a wax ring, it was because either the flange broke (as you mentioned) or the toilet was rocking (even slightly) when people sit and move around. If the subfloor has bowed at all from the weight... you get a small leak that gets bigger as that subfloor gets wet from time to time.. Because a wet subfloor starts to sag.

Pulling a toilet is so quick and easy that I would just pull it to assess the situation. If it's leaking the subfloor needs to be checked out.

The wax ring serves 2 purposes... seals water... and seals air. (Sewer gasses). if you've ever flushed and had a toilet start to back up.... all that water would be on the floor with no wax seal.
 
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Old 06-28-22, 11:44 AM
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I absolutely hate wax rings... but under the right circumstances they can work for decades without trouble.

10+ years ago I started an experiment with my rental properties where I tried every wax ring alternative on the market and toilet flange repair gizmos. The experiment ended several years ago with every product failing. Every flange repair gizmo rusted out or bent. Every wax substitute (foam squishy, adhesive mounted funnel...) all failed. So, I'm back to a solid floor with a toilet flange in good condition and an old fashioned wax ring.
 
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Old 07-01-22, 08:05 AM
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So, I ran a little experiment.
The floor was completely dry. I put a paper towel in front where the water appeared.
I left it alone for over 24 hours. No flushing, no using.
After 24+ hours I found the towel in perfect condition. No leak for that time.
So I sat on it and tried rocking it left/right/front/back.
Sure enough, some water appeared under the front.
This toilet had not been flushed or touched in any way for over a day.
Where did the water come from?
Was it pooling under there from the last flush for all that time?
The last flush went straight through. Bo backup.

I know I will have to pull the toilet but I'm hoping for ideas to look for.
 
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Old 07-01-22, 09:08 AM
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There was probably leaked water sitting under the toilet. If it's not being touched there is nothing to make the water move. When you rocked back and forth on the toilet you probably squished some out.
 
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Old 07-01-22, 09:18 AM
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A toilet is just a big bowl that has a trap in it, so if there is water in the bowl and you rock the toilet, some of that water may come out of the trap and spill down the drain. If the wax seal is bad, it will leak onto the floor.

Or it was water that was previously pooling under the toilet.
 
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Old 07-01-22, 09:35 AM
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The rings are new as of Sunday. It was used twice on Monday and leaked on Tuesday. Minimal use on Wednesday, leaked Thursday. Not flushed for 24 hours, then it leaked Friday. Never any backup.
I must have screwed up the installation.
I'm an old coot and don't feel like wrestling the toilet. I'll bet my son to move it for me this weekend.

Thanks, you may hear from me again.....good or bad.
 
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Old 07-01-22, 11:00 AM
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When you set the toilet down on the new wax ring does it feel like the toilet is coming down hard? The toilet should not land hard like it's hitting the toilet flange or or floor. When you set it down it should land soft as it comes in contact with the wax ring with the toilet off the floor a bit. I then sit on the toilet and wiggle to squish it down into the wax.

If your toilet goes "thunk" when it hits the floor you may need a taller wax ring like a jumbo. In some cases I'll even place a plain ring on top of a jumbo to build up the thickness to get a good seal.

I do not like the wax rings that have a urethane insert. They can work but sometimes the insert can prevent the toilet from seating properly or the insert can get squished out of position.
 
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Old 07-01-22, 11:21 AM
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I tried every wax ring alternative on the market and toilet flange repair gizmos. The experiment ended several years ago with every product failing. Every flange repair gizmo rusted out or bent. Every wax substitute (foam squishy, adhesive mounted funnel...) all failed.
Did you try this one? I am intrigued probably because it has the Fluidmaster name on it.
https://www.lowes.com/pd/Fluidmaster...ersal/50258405
 
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Old 07-01-22, 01:20 PM
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Anything that had a foam squishy part eventually failed. The foam compressed and did not rebound so there was no longer pressure holding the pieces together. I never had an application where it worked without the foam piece but if you magically had a perfectly level flange the exact correct distance from your brand toilet the flanged/ribbed silicone part might have worked on it's own.

I had high hopes for the type that had an adhesive to bond a flexible rubber, flanged funnel to the bottom of the toilet. The rubber bit slid down into the drain pipe and the multiple flanges sealed against the sides of the pipe. The problem is it only stuck well to brand new toilets. Even cleaning a used toilet with strong solvent I could never get enough wax out of the porous, unglazed porcelain for it to reliably stick.

I think wax works because it's sticky to help hold it in contact with both the toilet and flange plus it can move a tiny bit without loosing the seal. It just doesn't accommodate much movement so all it takes is a soft floor or an overweight person doing carrier landings to break the seal.

If I had my wishes toilets and the drain pipe would have a small protruding bit of pipe so you connect the two with a rubber boot (Fernco) and hose clamps. The clamps firmly keep the seal watertight and the rubber accommodates some movement without leaking.
 
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Old 07-02-22, 01:36 PM
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When you set the toilet down on the new wax ring does it feel like the toilet is coming down hard?
My son was doing the positioning with me spying at floor level. I seem to remember the base was not down to the floor so he sa on it.
I'll know more when he comes over.
 
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Old 07-28-22, 04:16 AM
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The toilet bowl bottom must not touch the floor flange.

Test fit the toilet bowl without the ring to be sure there is no rocking.

Also test the flange and the floor under the toilet to be sure that there is no squishiness or give in any direction. Rotted wood under the toilet will surely result in squishiness and movement.

Wax rings also have no rebound. So any toilet movement after installation will spoil the ring and you need a replacement.
 
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Old 09-29-22, 08:58 AM
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AllanJ,
I am sorry I missed your post. I must have deleted the email notification.
Well after nearly 3 months I found water under the toilet yesterday.
I will get my son to come over this weekend and do an inspection to see what could be the problem.
I will pick up two wax rings today.

I am worried that the floor may be rotting. In my last house that I lived in for 40 years I found that problem. I had a 1/2 bath that I decided to upgrade and that included replacing linoleum with Vermont slate. As I started to pry up the linoleum and got about 1/2 way to the toilet it suddenly all came free along with chunks of the sub-floor. That damn thing had been leaking for years possibly and I never knew. In fact, the basement was below it and I walked under the toilet every time I went in the basement, which sometimes was many times a day. The leak was so slow that not a drop showed. This house is 8 years old so there is plenty of time for the same thing to happen. Also, there is only a crawl space below that is impossible to navigate.

I'll report what I find.
 
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Old 10-01-22, 06:34 PM
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Well my son came over today and lifted the toilet off. This is the mess we found. I am starting to think that
(1) The toilet bottom is too close to the flange.
(2) The blue rubber insert is a problem because it is pushing the wax off the ceramic cone on the bottom of the toilet.
(3) What else??????????????

I think I should cut out the blue insert to fix #2.
For #1, I don't know. Originally there was no metal flange, just the PVC one but it cracked where right hand bolt head fits. So I added the metal flange with a wax ring under it as instructed. That added less then a 0.1 inch more height. That doesn't seem enough to cause #1. If I need to raise the toilet i will have to make some kind of plate that extends out as far as the "pressure points" (the arc near the back and the two protrusions near the front).
I'm just thinking these ideas out for now and hoping for better suggestions.
Oh, the floor seems really solid.



.



 
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Old 10-02-22, 06:30 PM
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AllanJ,
I followed your advice and tested for rocking without the ring. It rocked. So I tried it on a flat floor. That also rocked. I guess the bottom rim or something else isn't level. I tried to find it with a straight edge but everything seemed "flat". I need to do some more checking but if it is just a "bumpy" bottom I think I can remedy that using wedges.

But I am concerned that the wax ring may end up very thin. I made some measurements.
From the floor to the top of the original flange is 0.464 inches.
From the floor to the top of the metal flange is 0.594 inches.
Part of the blue rubber is above the metal flange so from the floor to the top of the blue rubber is 0.686 inches.
I measured the toilet bottom from the floor to the top of the cone where the wax ring would fit. It was 0.745 inches.
By my calculations, 0.745-0.686=0.059. That would be the thickness of the wax ring if the toilet is fully seated. That seems pretty thin, doesn't it? If it is, what would a good minimum thickness for the wax ring? I could create a plate that holds the toilet up so that the ring would be thicker.
Any opinions?
 
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Old 10-04-22, 04:53 AM
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I think the problem is your repair bracket/toilet flange. I have never had that type work well. The sheet metal allows the toilet to move which eventually breaks the seal with the wax ring. Plus, as you've seen there isn't much room. Removing the repair bracket would free up space.

Do you have access to the area from below? If so, replacing the broken toilet flange would be my number 1 choice.

If you don't want to replace the broken toilet flange you might be able to do a work around. You have one side of the flange that will still hold a bolt. On the other side run a screw through the toilet's mounting hole and into the framing (if you have it).
 
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Old 10-04-22, 09:54 AM
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Pilot Dane,

I think you have it right. But last night I took another shot at it. I speculate that the previous owners had a problem with this toilet. They may have cracked the flange trying to tighten the nuts.
I found that the toilet rocked when on a flat floor because the drain opening extended a little below the base of the toilet. Since that fits in the flange it should not be a problem. I was concerned that when reassembled, the 1' thick wax ring would be squished down to 0.059 inches. I decided to give it some more thickness. I had some peal and place vinyl floor pieces so I cut some to sit under the contact points under the toilet. That raised the toilet by 0.8" so the ring will compress to a little over 0.8". I feel better about that. Only time will tell.
If it leaks again I will try your solutions. The flange is solvent bound to the PVC pipe below so replacing it would be a problem. As for access from below. It is a crawl space with gravel covered with plastic. The last time I went under it felt like the gravel was the size of potatoes. Ouch! Also the entire area is full of heating ducts so access to any given area is unknown.
If this doesn't work I guess I'll do as you say and put a screw through the mounting hole into the floor/subfloor.

Thanks and thanks to all that got me to this stage,

Pete
 
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Old 10-04-22, 11:09 AM
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If the toilet rocks you are going to have to shim it like you did. That has to be done no matter what wax ring or gizmo.
 
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Old 10-04-22, 11:11 AM
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Yep. But it is not rocking now.
Solid as a rock.
 
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Old 10-04-22, 12:45 PM
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Did I see a round white plastic insert in the bottom drain hole of the toilet? That could be a source of leakage.Sealant (or wax) is needed both above and below such an insert.
 
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Old 10-04-22, 01:02 PM
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I'm not sure what you are referring to, sorry.
The only openings in the toilet are the bolt holes and the drain hole.
 
 

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