vinyl vs ceramic

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Old 02-25-11, 01:58 PM
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vinyl vs ceramic

I purchased my home with hardwood in the kitchen. Had a water cooler dispenser leak (twice) and now have damage in the middle of the floor. I am currently considering replacing with either ceramic or vinyl. I've never installed either myself. Underneath the existing hardwood is sheet vinyl and then a chipboard subfloor. If I choose ceramic I have to consider strenghtening the subfloor, extra labour and expense, all for a hard cold floor. If I choose vinyl tile, I hear there are issues with movement and peeling up and I have three busy kids and pets. More importantly I'm concerned about the "cheezy" factor, or are todays vinyl products of better look and quality?

I'm getting more confused by the day and really appreciate some opinions.

Thanks,
JG
 
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Old 02-25-11, 02:04 PM
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Ceramic will always outlast vinyl!

I'm a painter, not a floor guy but I usually do most of my own work. I'm not overly fond of sheet vinyl because you must get the cuts right so I prefer to use vinyl tiles or ceramic - depending on the job. My reasoning is if you screw up a sheet - that's a big deal but if you mess up one square, it's not that big of a deal to toss it and try again

If you go with vinyl, you'll need to install 1/4 luan first, tile will need cement board and possible joist stiffening.
 
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Old 02-25-11, 02:31 PM
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Yes, as it is the floor is quite bouncy so without reinforcement the ceramic is sure to crack. I don't know what luan is. Also, resale value at this point is not a factor. The kids are sure to destroy the rest of the mainfloor hardwood overtime so if I consider selling in the future I'm sure I'll have updates to do then.
 
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Old 02-25-11, 07:53 PM
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You need at least 1 1/8 of plywood subfloor for ceramic tile and that depends on span and joist size.
 
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Old 02-26-11, 03:02 AM
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Luan is a type of plywood. Most any big box should have 1/4" luan plywood. You cover the subfloor with it, staggering the joints and filling in any voids. Luan or whatever underlayment you use is needed for both vinyl tile and sheet goods. It prevents the vinyl from cracking or wearing out at the joints or over the larger nails that the subfloor is attached to the joists with.
 
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Old 02-26-11, 07:14 AM
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Can I install luan right over the existing vinyl? I was sure hoping to not have to rip that stuff up
 
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Old 02-26-11, 07:54 AM
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Not stepping on the others, but installation of the luan over the other linoleum is fine. If I were you, I would purchase a lesser expensive, or rent a narrow crown stapler (compressor type) and fix this luan to the floor. I would use at least 1 1/2" staples. They will grab the grain of the wood and will tend to keep it in place much better than nailing it alone. It is 15 times as fast, I might add. If you don't have tools to a great degree, it is also a good way of getting you hook-set and landed for more tools. We can help there, too
 
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Old 02-26-11, 12:23 PM
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I totally understand your concerns about moisture, but traditional 12 x 12 vinyl tiles score really high on the cheesy scale, especially the self stick variety. The problem is that any product that is going to give you a good visual and good performance is going to be a higher cost product. "Luxury vinyl" products, especially Amtico, offer amazing looks and durability, but you will pay for these benefits. If you do choose something like this be prepared to spend around $4-5.00/SF plus adhesive. I would also figure on spending a little extra to use multiply underlayment. Its higher quality than luan. You could install this product over the existing vinyl. A DIYer could install these products if they took their time and were careful, but if I was spending money on expensive materials, I would suck it up and have them professionally installed. I'm not a big fan of sheet vinyl. While old school vinyl products like Armstrong Solarian were incredibly durable, they were very hard to work with and quite expensive. Seaming vinyl is not a job for a novice and cheap vinyl doesn't hold up. Vinyl is also more waste intensive because you can't net out any areas under cabinets or for room cut outs. When I add up your concerns and needs, they seem to be: 1) Durability and moisture resistance, 2) looks and visual appeal, 3) value (cost vs benefit), and 4) ease of install. I know some posters might disagree with me, but I come up with click lock laminate. These products offer really nice visuals depending on the cost, are cost effective ($3-5.00/SF for a better quality laminate including foam underlayment, $1.50-3.00/SF for basic laminate), don't require you to purchase material for cabinet areas and room cut outs (figure the actual net square footage of the room plus 7% for cutting waste, can be installed over the existing vinyl, and are relatively easy to install. Moisture is an issue, and I'm sure other posters may take issue with me, but moisture resistance has improved dramatically in laminate floors over the years. Additionally, click lock floors are relatively easy to repair if you do get damage. Just make sure to purchase an extra carton for insurance. Also, regarding your leaky water line, you can purchase braided water hoses that are significantly stronger than those supplied with your fridge. If your existing hose is a solid whitish plastic, I would consider upgrading it to avoid future leaks. Hope this helps.
 
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Old 02-26-11, 01:48 PM
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Luan is a very poor choice. It contains voids in the plys which can collapse. It would be better to buy underlayment grade plywood. The use of luan will void product warranties.






"40 year flooring installer"
 
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Old 03-26-11, 08:07 AM
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vinyl vs ceramic

We have done luan and 12 inch square tiles.we have done plywood with square tiles
even full sheet vinyl with both plywood and Luan you name it we have tried it
We have laid extra glue,rolled it ,let it set have tried it all and with our 4 boys it was still a problem. All it needs is a small hole or tear and the water can get under it .
IF you have boys and this is a home and not a house then believe me go with some sort of rubber/vinyl type flooring
there is a rubber type click and lock that says it is 100 % water proof
Do a lot of reading as we just started to put a laminate floor down click and lock ,when you get into the fine print it is moisture resistent not water resitent or water proof. Go the the mfg website and ask them if it is water proof before buying
If any water gets under the tiles it will come up.
Now depending on where you live and buy we saw it at a price of 58.00 for 24 square foot which we felt is a good price
 
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Old 04-13-11, 10:56 AM
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As a flooring specialist for years I always recommend ceramic/porcelain over vinyl anytime, regardless of extra cost. As long as the added height of the backer board is acceptable. Hard tile is meant to last a lifetime, vinyl is disposable.

If you choose to go vinyl... look for the IVC brand. Its a fiberglass backed vinyl that looks awesome (for vinyl) and is structural stable, no curling. If seams or repairs are needed it does it better than any standard felt backed vinyl.
 
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Old 04-13-11, 03:36 PM
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Having installed floor covering for 40 years, I disagree. IVC vinyls have not been around long enough to know if they will last. Many of the traditional felt-backed vinyls that I installed 30 years ago, still look good. IMO, IVC vinyls are like laminate floors, they are a temporary product for those who can't afford the real thing.
 
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Old 04-15-11, 03:21 PM
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I've been doing this long enough to have seen time and again "revolutionary" products that don't live up to the hype. I agree with sam, floating vinyl systems like Konecto or Mannington's new click product will have to be around a lot longer before I believe. Anyone remember Mannington Gold, Award Hardwood, Kid Proof carpet...? The list goes on.
 
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Old 04-24-11, 07:14 AM
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Thank-you all very kindly for the advice, but jeez the choices make my head spin. Sometimes with the crew around here I feel like just spreading woodchips. LOL They probably would'nt even notice!
 
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Old 04-25-11, 09:55 PM
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The grout between the ceramic tiles will discolor and you have to clean it but it will be dirty in 5-6 weeks. So vinyl will be the best choice for living a carefree life.
 
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Old 04-26-11, 03:36 AM
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Vinyl --- carefree?? Incongruous terms. Using a darker grout and sealing it will keep stains at bay and the cleaning isn't so bad. Vinyl? Well, it's just so.......vinyl.
 
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Old 04-27-11, 11:37 AM
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We switched to ceramic in all our units because we found our cost was actually lower to install ceramic when the existing vinyl needed to be replaced than to put down new vinyl

We're obviously not as concerned about the pattern in a rental unit like a homeowner would be but we bought a pallet and a half of tile last year for 50 a square foot
 
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Old 04-27-11, 02:48 PM
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I'm trying to talk a customer with a mountain rental cabin to do the same thing in her basement, which will eventually become another bedroom and "game" room possibly with pool table. She wants a "plywood" floor, and I told her I wouldn't be the one to do it, but would recommend ceramic tile. I quoted the price for the ceramic (using the 57 cent stuff at big orange) and I think I have her mind turning the corner, now. Hey, it's a weekend rental cabin for goodness sake, not the Taj Mahal. Oh, yeah, I have the 57 cent stuff in our bathrooms and kitchen, just don't tell anyone.
 
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Old 04-27-11, 04:07 PM
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"Well, it's just so.......vinyl. "

I've never seen it said better.

My order of preference for flooring

WOOD
TILE
CARPET
DIRT
VINYL
 
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Old 08-09-11, 08:50 AM
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hahaha

Its been awhile now and I'm gaining some confidence, so this scared newbie is goona actually give it a try. Also, I can't bring myself to rip up the existing and undamaged portion of the hardwood to install cheese.

If I give you all the specs could you please help me further?

Hardwood is on top of vinyl. Vinyl is resting on a subfloor which consists of;

5/8 osb board that has a stamp

sa0188.2m
grade p1p1
ext.bond
5/8 floor
max span 16''

The joists are 7 3/4 wide and 1 3/4 thick and they span across the room at approx 14' They are spaced 12' apart
Is it reasonable to just lay cementboard then tile? Can I get away with installing the board on top of the vinyl.
Thank-you all so much
Janet
 
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Old 08-09-11, 10:16 AM
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Janet - I'm not a tile pro but I've done quite a bit of ceramic tile. I would not put tile over the vinyl/subfloor that you have.

I think your 2X8 floor joists are adequate to provide the stiffness you need, but I would be concerned about the OSB. If it were my house I would tear out the vinyl and put down 3/4" T&G plywood over the OSB and 1/4" Hardibacker as an underlayment. If that presents a floor height problem you might be able to go down to 5/8" with the plywood and/or a tile membrane like Ditra instead of the Hardibacker.

Tiling is not a difficult job. The critical part is making sure the support for the tile is adequate. Tiling is easier than sheet vinyl and you end up with a floor that should last the lifetime of the house. Tile is more difficult than the tacky little vinyl squares but the effort is worht it.
 
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Old 08-09-11, 12:33 PM
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Janet

2x8 floor joists spanned 14' (even at 12" on center) are overspanned for ceramic tile. You either need to do something to strengthen the floor joist system or choose an alternative floor covering.
 
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Old 08-09-11, 01:00 PM
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Thanks Guys!

Is hardiboard aka wonderboard aka cementboard? So adjoining rms are 5/8 osb and then 3/4 hardwood. If I installed 5/8 plywood and then either cementboard or ditra I'm all set?
 
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Old 08-09-11, 01:06 PM
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Sorry to be a pest. One more point. I measured the span of the joints from the basement. The span of the actual porcelian will be at most 9ft. Does this make a diff.
 
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Old 08-09-11, 02:00 PM
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Span is measured from support to support, not the tiled area. Adding plywood will not compensate for overspanned joists. Sistering the joists or adding a support wall below to shorten the span are possible solutions.
 
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Old 08-09-11, 02:14 PM
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Adding a wall to the bsmt rm is out all together, and I assume sistering the joists means doubling up each one. That is out of the question also because there is just too much other stuff going on in there. (wiring, gas pipes, water pipes. not to mention blocks of wood in between each joists at intervals

I guess I'm back to the drawing board
 
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Old 08-10-11, 07:53 AM
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The span table I looked at gives a maximum span for #2 grade 2X8 pine joist as 14'2" when spaced 12" apart. This is for a residential 40 psf live load and an L360 deflection.
 
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Old 08-10-11, 08:14 AM
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Well thanks for going to so much trouble for me. It sounds like it just squeaks under the wire. Do you think this means its a crap shoot whether it will fail or not?
 
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Old 08-10-11, 10:16 AM
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Wayne

In my business we use 50/20 , not 40/10. Id not install ceramic tile on those joists. Additionally, those span tables assume new lumber in top condition. We do not know what species of wood or what condition Janet's joists are in.
 
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Old 08-10-11, 01:15 PM
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Why go through all this turmoil?? Buy some cheap laminate, caulk all around the edge for water resistance and if 5 or 10 years from now it looks bad rip it up and do it again. Quick and easy job, no tearing out of anything and a new floor every 5 to 10 years...Priceless. You got 3 kids and pets to fret over without worrying about a kitchen floor.
 
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Old 08-10-11, 02:04 PM
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In theory a good idea, but then we are back to ripping out the undamaged portion of hardwood to install laminate, which imo has an even greater potential for major damage vs hardwood in a kitchen application.
I think if the pros are telling me I just can't have real tile with this joist system, the next best solution may be to install that ceramic look allure floating stuff right on top of the hardwood, and then down the road the whole floor gets refinished. It didn't make sense to shell out over $500, when the real stuff is only slightly more.

Disappointed!!
 
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