Lose tiles after installation

Reply

  #1  
Old 09-05-02, 09:08 PM
Luthar28
Visiting Guest
Posts: n/a
Lose tiles after installation

Well, as with everything I've done, the learning curve usually causes me to do everything twice (my electrical, my plumbing, my drywall, my framing...). Now I'm onto ceramic tile.

The area is small (55 sq/ft) and I am finished (or thought I was finished). I used Flexbond for the adhesive, I have 12" tile, and I put it on 1/2" plywood, and I used a 1/4" trowel.

I went to apply the grout and I realized that some of the tiles are 'loose'. Some I could even flip up by hand. The adhesive would either stick to the flooring, or stick to the tile (so all the adhesive would be on one side, but not the other).

Anyone have any idea what would cause this? The only thing I could think of was that when I went to clean the tile a few hours after setting them, that maybe I jarred them loose (and it does seem to be all the center tiles that are loose).
 
Sponsored Links
  #2  
Old 09-05-02, 09:45 PM
Member
Join Date: May 2001
Location: canada
Posts: 673
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
Hi
A few hours isn't nearly long enough..especially on plywood....you should have stayed off the tile at least 24 hrs before walking on them(it says so on the bag). All you can do now is take out the loose ones and reinstall them...only this time let the thin set dry before walking on them.
 
  #3  
Old 09-05-02, 10:13 PM
Melmcbth
Visiting Guest
Posts: n/a
don't hurt yourself!

Did you mix the Flexbond? Sounds like it was too dry to me - -
Mastic is a very touchy subject, too wet and tiles slide, too dry and they don't stick.
Adanac is right, re-apply and give it more time. You can do only the ones that are loose you know.
good luck and remember, it wasn't your spouse (or kids, or dog) that hit your thumb with the hammer!
mel
 
  #4  
Old 09-06-02, 06:13 PM
Member
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Katy (Houston area) TX USA
Posts: 1,344
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
I'm afraid no one has mentioned the 1/2 in. plywood. I don't put tile on plywood to begin with, and 1/2 in. ? I hope there is something else under it. Otherwise, I'll suggest you tear it all out and start over.
 
  #5  
Old 09-07-02, 10:22 PM
Luthar28
Visiting Guest
Posts: n/a
Not on Plywood

Thanks for the input. I think most of the problem actually ended up being that I wasn't mixing the adhesive correctly (not enough water) and then me walking on it, made the brittle material crack while setting.

However, I see that John doesn't like plywood...what would you use other than plywood? I thought that was the only material?
 
  #6  
Old 09-08-02, 08:32 AM
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 5,074
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
According to the Tile Council, Plywood must be more then " thick! Deflection will pop the tiles loose later, and the grout will crumble!

Over an organic subfloor like wood the expands and contracts with the temp and humidity way more then the tile, guess what is going to happen. Movement is the tiles worst enemy!!!!!!!!

Not to mention the woods organic nature will grow mold!!

A cement board underlayment for greater deflection and to act as an uncoupling membrane, is the only way to go for a greater success rate, with less failures down the road, depending on just how much movement you have in the entire structure.

Hardie Backer, Durock, Wonderboard, Rhinoboard are just a few of the cement board underlayment makers. http://www.hardibacker.com/

But if you want the ultimate uncoulping membrane, look at a product called Ditra, made by the Schluter company http://www.schluter.com/english/products/h6.1-ditra.htm


Sorry to hear that you are asking for education, after the installation and not before.
May be that is why you doing thing 2 and 3 times to get it right. LOL!!! Just messing with you! It was too easy.

Take your time, read, ask and learn before taking on any task that is an investment.
 
  #7  
Old 08-12-07, 12:20 AM
Member
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 4
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
adhesive question

I hired an experienced contractor (and husband of a co-worker) to install Shaw ceramic tile, 13x13 in my living room and hall, about 400 sq ft. over slab concrete. He told me to buy premixed adhesive in a bucket, so I got Acrylpro. now the entire internet seems to say that was a really bad plan, shoulda gotten thinset in the bag. the living room is practically done, he set four rows Friday and about eight more yesterday. the tile set Friday doesn't slide or move when i apply pressure (in other words, it seems to be drying and staying put), but three tiles are making a clacking noise when i walk on them. he hasn't grouted yet, and said that should stop the noise (which seems to me to be looseness because the tiles aren't bedded, right??). acrylpro's manufacturer says it can be used on floors but drying time is "greatly extended." the back of the bucket says it can be used on floors with tile up to 12x12. my contractor says another inch doesn't matter. this floor is going to have to support a grand piano, and also is the most-used floor in the house.

thoughts?
 
  #8  
Old 08-12-07, 05:56 AM
clockdaddy's Avatar
Member
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Frankfort
Posts: 210
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
I love nice tile,but I'm really concerned about putting the grand piano on it. If the base element were concrete I'd see no problem, but wood, Well.....

That being said, If you can readily move a tile, it needs to be reset. Yes, grouting will stablize the tile, but us only a temporary fix. Sooner or later the weakness of the adhesion of the tile to the wood will allow for a fracturing of the grout and the individual tile will have to be taken up and reset or replaced.

Good luck,

CD
 
  #9  
Old 08-12-07, 06:36 AM
Member
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 4
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
it is on concrete. none of the tiles is moving at all but three have a hollow sound.
 
  #10  
Old 08-12-07, 08:43 AM
Member
Join Date: May 2007
Location: USA
Posts: 1,607
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
Jwiley,

Sorry to hear about your situation. It is obvious your contractor friend has little or no knowledge about how tiles should be set in order for them to last a long time. You are going to be replacing tiles as they break or come loose every year. They should have used thinset mortar, (comes only in powder form in a bag). Thinset dries hard and is waterproof. Your Acrylpro mastic will never completely dry, and if it gets wet, it'll return to its original form.....mush.

Not only that, but you paid about 3 times more for this adhesive (junk) than the thinset. Obviously your friend is afraid to mix the thinset, thinks its easier to buy pre-mixed stuff?

Try this, remove on of the tiles that seem to be stuck well. I will bet the outer inch or so may have set up, but the rest is still paste. It would be best to remove all of the tiles, clean the backs and floor well, then do it right.

Jaz
 
  #11  
Old 08-12-07, 08:57 AM
Member
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 1,342
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
Hollow sounds under tile are normally due to an inadequate amount of adhesive. The adhesive is not only there to bond the tile, it's also there to bed it and hollow sounds are normally due to inadequate bedding. A clacking noise is an even greater indicator of inadequate bedding. That is normally an indicator of NO bedding and the tile is slapping bare sub floor. If left unaddressed, the tiles will break, especially under the weight of a grand piano. A grand has the weight concentrated at each leg and, if it's sitting on one of those tiles, will break it. As to the grout helping with the issue, not really. It may stiffen things up enough to mask the problem for a bit, but will not solve it. I've done this stuff many years, have worked around and with many pros, and have never heard any of them actually request this sort of adhesive. We provide materials as part of the job and don't have the home owner get them in the first place. Four rows of tile in a day? Are you absolutely certain your installer is a professional tile setter?
 
  #12  
Old 08-12-07, 09:19 AM
HotxxxxxxxOKC's Avatar
Banned. Rule And/Or Policy Violation
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 8,044
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
4 rows, yikes!

Me as a tile novice installed about almost 400sqft in one day......I would strongly listen to Smokey's posts, he is a pro.
 
  #13  
Old 08-12-07, 11:42 AM
Member
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 4
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
he only set four rows so i could walk around them until they dried, and then walk on the first four rows after that (i have to walk on that floor to get to the bedroom and bathrooms). he does a lot of different work, remodels, etc., he is not specifically a tile setter. but he is a contractor with a license, he's been in the business for 10 years, he started with a wallpaper business and after 911 people didn't want wallpaper so he started doing the other work. i just tried and i can't get one up with my hands, i would have to use a pry bar or something and break it to get it off the floor at this point.
 
  #14  
Old 08-12-07, 01:22 PM
Member
Join Date: May 2007
Location: USA
Posts: 1,607
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
Pry it up with your hands....? You're not going to remove it with just your hands. One thing we all know is that he needs to hang out at one of these tile installation forums, or read some specs or something?

BTW, having a license means nothing. Anyway I bet it is probably just a 'builders license', which does not qualify anyone to do anything in particular.

Jaz
 
  #15  
Old 08-12-07, 02:16 PM
Member
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 1,342
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
Now we're on one of my pet peevs and I should probably start a general discussion thread on it instead of addressing it here, but, any how... I agree, licensing means nothing. The state of Oregon requires any one in construction labor to be licensed, bonded, and insured. And yet, the licensing process has nothing to do with an installer's competence in a given trade, it simply has to do with their ability to pay taxes. There are many so called contractors running around this state botching jobs who have all the right pedigree but no clue about the job they're hiring out for. I've asked several "powers that be" what all the licensing stuff is about and always get the same textbook answer, to protect the consumer. When I point out the obvious, it's the old "deer in the headlights" look and they're lost. I guess they just never think some of this stuff through. If there were a trade certification required, I might grudgingly go along with it, but even that is no guarantee of competence. Just because knowledge is possessed doesn't mean it will be applied. Tile setters typically are paid by the piece and some of them lack the personal integrity to do the job as it should be rather than take short cuts that up their hourly income.
 
  #16  
Old 08-12-07, 05:10 PM
Member
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 4
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
Well, I called him and talked to him about all of this. he assures me he uses the same stuff "all the time" and has never had any problem with any job. if i have problems with it down the road i've pointed out my concern and i'll do whatever is necessary to have him come back and fix it, even if that means tearing it up and doing it over. he isn't going anywhere, his wife is someone i've known for years and trust.

and don't make fun of me for trying to pry it up with my hands, i may be a girl but i can change a tire, lol. thanks for your help, though, I really appreciate y'all talking to me.
 
  #17  
Old 08-12-07, 06:14 PM
czizzi's Avatar
Member
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: USA
Posts: 7,376
Received 9 Votes on 7 Posts
I did some extensive work at a local hotel, they had a handyman/maintenance man who tried to install ceramic tile in one of their back stairwells using construction adhesive out of a tube!!!! I called the manager aside and told her that this would not work, I also provided appropriate documentation as to why. She put a stop on the job and for 8 months, the tile sat, in place, until they had the funds to hire to job out (to me) and do it right. After 8 months of sitting, the "adhesive" that he used had still not set up. We took out all the tile with a putty knife.

Please listen to what the above threads warn of. If he is licenced and insured, have him take it up and do it the correct way (on his dime). Make him stand behind his work. Don't let him "assure you" that it will be OK, he obviously does'nt know tile and is attempting to persuade you that he does. Remind him that wallpaper and tile are different animals. File a complaint against him if he refuses to correct the situation.

I hope you do not lose a good friend in the process.
 
  #18  
Old 08-13-07, 06:51 AM
Member
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 3,497
Received 1 Vote on 1 Post
Equally as frustrating as the contractors and diyers that dont know any better and used this premixed stuff are the manufacturers who make this crap and sell it as a one product does it all solution. These manufacturers know better but they somehow get away with it. How many of these similar situations have we seen come across this and other boards.

Smokey, the licensing in NJ is the same scenario. No qualifcations, just pay the fee. I think for the most post states (and in NJ lots of municipalities) just want the fee, yes its an additional source of revenue. Consumers can check with the state to see if the contractor has any complaints filed against them, but they usually dont do that until they have a problem of their own with the contractor. But anyway you have to have the licensing to pull permits. Unfortunately, the licensing doesnt make you any good at what you do, thats up to you. The licensing I guess is just a cost or doing business in NJ.
 
  #19  
Old 08-13-07, 06:24 PM
Member
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 1,342
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
I suspect such is the case in any state that requires licensing. The state sells the idea to the voters on the argument that it will improve service to the consumer, the voters go for it, and all it does is line the governmental coffers some more and up the labor rates to the consumers. We can't foot the bill and still make a living, so the folks who voted it in get to foot the bill. Unfortunately, you can't get them to understand that when they're voting for it. And, once a new revenue stream is established, when has any one ever seen any governing body shut that stream off? As far as I can see, licensing is bad law and should be done away with.
 
Reply

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Display Modes
 
Ask a Question
Question Title:
Description:
Your question will be posted in: