New Shower on Slab - Floor install???

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  #1  
Old 02-10-03, 08:45 PM
pmedina
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New Shower on Slab - Floor install???

Iím am in the process of moving a shower in a bathroom built on an above grade concrete slab. The new shower will be located about 5-6 feet from the original. The new shower will be tiled on the floor as well as three walls. I have some questions regarding procedures for building the new shower.

The new shower floor will need to be contoured to drain properly. The shower floor may need to be built up an additional inch or so in order to provide the ľ inch per foot slope in the drain line.

Question 1: What is the appropriate material/product to use to build up and contour the new floor?

Question 2: How should the old concrete slab be prepared to insure a good bond between it and the material used to build up and contour the floor?

Question 3: Should the new shower be framed first and then the floor built up and contoured or should the floor be built up and contoured first with the new framing placed atop the built up and contoured area?


Thanks,

Paul
 
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Old 02-10-03, 09:33 PM
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Hi Paul,

I'm probably going to throw you some curves but let's persue this for a while first.

Question 1: What is the appropriate material/product to use to build up and contour the new floor?

>>>"Deck mud" Sandmix: 5 sand to 1 portland.

Question 2: How should the old concrete slab be prepared to insure a good bond between it and the material used to build up and contour the floor?

>>>You don't want a 'bond'.
Rather use some roofing felt to isolate the two.

Question 3: Should the new shower be framed first and then the floor built up and contoured or should the floor be built up and contoured first with the new framing placed atop the built up and contoured area?

>>>Frame the walls first.

NOW...I have questions.
What style floor drain do you plan to use and how where you going to waterproof the transition from the floor slope to the walls.
 
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Old 02-11-03, 12:02 PM
pmedina
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Bud,

Thanks for the responses and the questions.

<<What style floor drain do you plan to use?>>

I have seen two styles of drains at Home Depot and Lowes. One is ABS and the other is Cast Iron. The ABS drain has a 2" slip female and the cast iron one has a 2" threaded female. They both have a flange approximately 5" in diameter located half way between the ends. These are the only two I could find which indicated they are to be used for installation in a slab. Are there other types I should use? I plan to visit a plumbing supply to look into some of these issues, but have not been able to yet. I find it difficult to find knowlegable help at the Home depot type home improvement centers. The original is the cast iron type. I have not removed the original drain but have exposed it under the slab. It appears to be rusted out so I was leaning towards the ABS drain in the new shower.

<<How where you going to waterproof the transition from the floor slope to the walls?>>

I have thought about this some. This is one reason I was wondering about the sequencing between the framing and the floor install. I have no idea what is required to waterproof the transition. The original shower, which is 22 years old, had tile floor and walls. The walls were green board and wire mesh covered with a cement mortar. I saw no waterproofing at the transition and there was zero water damage. Any suggestions on what to do here?

I sure appreciate your input.

Paul
 
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Old 02-11-03, 03:29 PM
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The two floor drains you are describing are intended to be used in a shower floor that has two cement casts. One sloped cast below a vinyl shower pan liner and one sloped cast above the vinyl liner. The vinyl liner clamps into the center of the floor drain.

This is the way most showers are and have been built for many many years and I would recommend you follow suite.

We can get into this further but I'm low on time right now.
 
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Old 02-11-03, 05:01 PM
pmedina
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Bud,

I also posted this question in the Bath forum. User Brewbeer provided the following links.

http://www.ontariotile.com/preslope.html

http://johnbridge.com/vbulletin/foru...p?s=&forumid=8

This lead me to another great forum that I see you are involved in.

The pre slope info is for a plywood floor. Would I follow the same basic procedure for a slab?

Thanks,

Paul
 
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Old 02-11-03, 05:58 PM
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It's the same either way if you use that system...but wait!!! there's more!!!

I have been scorned for this one by the likes of...well one of those you mentioned, whom admits he's never done it, he just doesn't like it.

I have for years at the direction of many engineers and architects used a liquid membrane painted on the surface of a sloped (to drain) conrete floor. This membrane continues up the walls using a companion fabric at the floor to wall junctures and in the wall to wall junctures. I have built these showers in industrial manufacturing plants, colleges, jails, and law enforcement facilities. The tile is then simply and quickly (I might add) installedonto the membrane. This paintable membrane product is from the great Laticrete International people.

Then-n-n-n-n-n...there is another great product from another well known company in the industry and that is a product called KERDI MAT from Schluter Systems. KERDI MAT is a viyl mat product that is bonded to a fleece on both sides. The fleece is there to bond to thinset. Since you are moving your floor drain anyway you could use the KERDI MAT and the KERDI DRAIN that is part of the system. The KERDI DRAIN comes with a removable "square" cover plate and inside is a screen (filter) that can be routinely cleaned. The KERDI DRAIN is set in place when you cast your first and only slope. The KERDI DRAIN has a large flange that is then covered with the KERDI MAT. The KERDI MAT is then continued up the walls and all junctures are waterpoofed in doing so. Here's the best part. The KEDI DRAIN as I said is square eliminating any cutting around a round drain but it also is moveable at the time the tile is installed so that the drain can be centered perfectly with the floor tile. It is an amazing concept. I love it!!!

Soyou see there are options.

I am approaching my 2000 character limit so I have to stop for now.

Waiting for your new questions.

OK OK I got forty characters to go s
 
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Old 02-11-03, 08:30 PM
pmedina
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Bud,

Thanks again for the reply. How do you find time to read and answer so many of these questions?

Sounds like another interesting approach. I will search out Kerdi Mat to learn more.

Although I have never done this type of work before, the hands on technical part of it does not worry me. What worries me is jumping into the project without having the knowledge and understanding of the correct steps/methods needed to accomplish the task.

Paul
 
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Old 02-12-03, 03:44 PM
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I was a longtime Moderator on another board. Our in depth knowledge and quick responses made the place very popular in a short period of time. I would get home from work and have anywhere between 25 to 60 questions and comments daily. It took all evening to get through it and my wife threatened divorce.

So I jumped over here where things are a little slower and I have been able to get through everything in about an hour. I like that.

This place will never be that popular because the people that run this place absolutely refuse to turn on the features. Without hotlinks and pictures this place will go no where it hasn't already been.
 
  #9  
Old 02-26-03, 09:29 AM
pmedina
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Hello Bud & anyone else who is interested,

I've been very busy selecting the tile, tub, faucets (tub, shower, vanity), shower door, drains, etc. It is easy to underestimate the time and effort required to complete this portion of the project.

I've also been spending time thinking about and studying all the information I have come across regarding the building of the shower pan and curb. The construction of the shower will definitely be the most challenging and time consuming part of the project. The following links have been a great help.

http://johnbridge.com/mortar_bed_shower_floor.htm
http://johnbridge.com/shower_curbs.htm
http://ontariotile.com/preslope.html
http://web.archive.org/web/200112112...ers/index.html

At this point I have almost completed the framing of the shower and will cut the concrete this weekend to run the new drain line. Then it will be time to start the shower pan. I looked into the Kurdi drain but have found no one locally who knows about it or carries it. I am leaning towards the PVC membrane since I found a tile store that carries the Compotite membrane as well as preformed corner/curb pieces. I do have the following questions:

1) Since the floor is concrete, what should be used to anchor the wire mesh and the roofing paper to the concrete?

2) I have been leaning towards the 30 mil membrane. I figured it might be a little easier to work with. I also thought that the 30 mil would not create as much difference in thickness between the 3 layer thick folded corners and the single layer thick area between corners. This in trun would allow the cement backer board to lay more evenly across the membrane. Does this train of thought make sense?

3) Should the bottom edge of the cement backer board be above or below the surface of the final mortar bed of the shower pan? It appears to me that the procedure on ontariotile.com shows the bottom edge below the final mortar bed.

4) Once I refill the slab with concrete where the new drain line is run I will eventually have to lay floor tile over it. Should I treat it as a crack and put a membrane over it? Any tricks or important details I need to be aware of when filling the slab back in?

Thank You,

Paul
 
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Old 02-27-03, 05:59 AM
TileguyTodd
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Paul,due to non cooperation by the management here bud and I have both deemed it essential to stay at a forum that allows all the options to be used. youve already been there so you know where to find us
 
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Old 02-27-03, 12:35 PM
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Paul,

Feel free to email me anytime I can be of help toyou.

We can't seem to get any co-operation from the powers that run this board.

Bud
 
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