Quick question


  #1  
Old 12-04-03, 02:59 PM
flyjetta
Visiting Guest
Posts: n/a
Quick question

I bought tile at the local tile shop.. ht is ellane and is 12 1/4 X 12 1/4" and it says 6 and 8 mm thick <- is that right? How big of a trowel do I need?

They also said if I don't have any cracks that I can just lay them on the cement.. but if I have cracks I can just put a membrane over the crack.. is this true?
 
  #2  
Old 12-04-03, 03:58 PM
D
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Canton Ohio
Posts: 1,397
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
1/4x1/4x3/8 will do it. Use thinset, not mastic, and you'll be fine.
 
  #3  
Old 12-04-03, 07:40 PM
awesomedell's Avatar
Member
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: USA
Posts: 2,425
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
Daniel,

Don't you think ditra, or at least a paint on membrane would be called for over a cracked slab? If not why?
 
  #4  
Old 12-05-03, 05:59 AM
flyjetta
Visiting Guest
Posts: n/a
I've seen the paint on membranes.. do you think it would be good procedure to put one on even if it isn't cracked?
 
  #5  
Old 12-05-03, 06:00 AM
flyjetta
Visiting Guest
Posts: n/a
but of course.. if I didn't have to do it I would like to know that also
 
  #6  
Old 12-05-03, 06:01 AM
flyjetta
Visiting Guest
Posts: n/a
by the way.. the area I'm doing is small.. maybe 5X3, so I think there is a large chance there won't be any cracks (or I'm hoping )
 
  #7  
Old 12-05-03, 07:08 AM
ee3
Visiting Guest
Posts: n/a
Hopefully next year the standard will be in place for crack isolation membranes.There will be two levels 1/16" up to 1/8" and 1/8" and over...Nobleseal has been tested to the 1/8" and over. [
 

Last edited by floorman; 12-07-03 at 01:28 PM.
  #8  
Old 12-05-03, 03:17 PM
D Taylor's Avatar
Member
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Cape Cod, MA Morristown, NJ Edmonton, Canada
Posts: 116
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
Eric, there is no advertising allowed in your posts.


The trowel size you use depends on the exact model of Eliane you have and the flatness of your concrete.

You'll want to trowel out an area and set a tile in the mortar. You'll take it up to check the coverage on the back and make sure it is 95% or better, with all corners covered. There really is no set trowel-to-tile combination because of the variances in both tile and substrate.

Installing a membrane is always a good idea. Schluter Ditra is the most widely-used single underlayment for vapor pressure release, uncoupling and waterproofing. You can also buy it in cut sizes for your 3x5 area, whereas other places expect you to buy a big roll. It's 1/8" thin and very easy to install. It cuts using a box cutter knife.

Use an un-modified thinset to install your Ditra and tile.
 

Last edited by D Taylor; 12-05-03 at 03:33 PM.
  #9  
Old 12-06-03, 04:54 AM
awesomedell's Avatar
Member
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: USA
Posts: 2,425
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
D Taylor

Ask to see your installer's Journeyman Tilesetter Certificate. It's your assurance he's completed at least four years of tile and stone installation training.
Isn't this bit in your signature nothing more than an ad for union tile setters?

Only time I see the unions up in my neck of the woods is when they're come up here to snap up a big job like the new motel they built here last fall, which the job went 4 months over schedule, and lord knows how much over budget, which seems pretty typical from my experiences, where I've sometimes been the only non-union shop working on a particular site. I get work because I have a hard earned reputation for doing the best possible quality job within the bounds of budget & schedule.

IMHO, a much better suggestion would be to advise the homeowner to ask for and check out references from your perspective tileman, or any other tradesman for that matter.
 
  #10  
Old 12-06-03, 05:37 AM
D Taylor's Avatar
Member
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Cape Cod, MA Morristown, NJ Edmonton, Canada
Posts: 116
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
Union? Who said anything about a union?

I am talking about a level of training that people should be looking for. I did not get my training from any union, nor have I met more than a handful of Journeyman Tilesetters that did.

I think the biggest misconception out there is the union is the only place you can get training to become a Tilesetter. That's simply not true. Getting training from a non-union school is by far the norm nowadays. The level of training is far better than any union school could provide - unions want everyone to be on a baking sheet, ready to go in the oven.
 
  #11  
Old 12-06-03, 06:42 AM
ee3
Visiting Guest
Posts: n/a
David can you list some of the schools for training?(not mfg.)
1.CTEF
2.NTCA
 
  #12  
Old 12-06-03, 07:17 AM
awesomedell's Avatar
Member
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: USA
Posts: 2,425
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
If not the union, who is issuing these guys a journeyman card?
 
  #13  
Old 12-06-03, 07:28 AM
D Taylor's Avatar
Member
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Cape Cod, MA Morristown, NJ Edmonton, Canada
Posts: 116
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
Eric: I'm not going to waste my time to answer your question, just because you want to play Devil's Advocate.

Dell: Good question. Usually, the state or provincial government will issue the certification. This is done through various departments like the Board of Education, Training and Apprenticeship, Education, Labor or Professional Certification divisions.

Journeyman Tilesetters make up the training staff of those departments.

This to me is the best method, since the departments of Consumer and Corporate Affairs, Revenue and Licensing have very strong interaction with the above departments.
 
  #14  
Old 12-06-03, 07:37 AM
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 5,073
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
Ya, I'm a little confused too.


Rarely do unions get involved down here in the land of the immigrant worker. What I'm I to ask for? Maybe a green card, ???

A certificated from the schools listed above, is not a journeymans certificate.

Now, licensing and being certified is much different then being a union journeyman, or apprentice.
 
  #15  
Old 12-06-03, 07:55 AM
D Taylor's Avatar
Member
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Cape Cod, MA Morristown, NJ Edmonton, Canada
Posts: 116
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
The schools issue the Journeyman Certificate.

The latter departments are there to confirm the person is certified to do the work when they try to apply for licensing, are involved in a dispute where a consumer, etc.

If state or provincial schools don't issue a Journeyman's Certificate, they are not Apprenticeship schools.

Being certified as a Tilesetter, Tile Setter or Tile Mechanic (note the exact spellings) means you are a Journeyman. They are legal names for someone who is certified by passing their apprenticeship. It means a Tile Installer, Floor Covering Mechanic or anyone else cannot lay claim to being one of the above.

You cannot legally advertise or represent yourself as such if you aren't. It's as simple as that.

Why does everyone relate a Journeyman with being union?
 
  #16  
Old 12-06-03, 07:59 AM
ee3
Visiting Guest
Posts: n/a
Take some deep breaths David ,that was a real question.Other then the two ,who?The industry as a whole has been for many years trying to put together a training program with little luck..
 
  #17  
Old 12-06-03, 08:07 AM
D Taylor's Avatar
Member
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Cape Cod, MA Morristown, NJ Edmonton, Canada
Posts: 116
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
Eric: You're the one who should take some breaths... maybe even get outside for a while. Have you not seen the union thread on JB's site?

If you claim to know as much about the tile industry and people as you say you do, you'd already know the answer to your question.
 
  #18  
Old 12-06-03, 08:11 AM
ee3
Visiting Guest
Posts: n/a
Boy David ,I ask you a real question and look what I get from you> Sorry I asked you??Maybe he'll answer for one of you other guys.?

Since I typed the above I checked the thread you mentioned Unless I missed it in there I dont see any mentoin of a school for training!
 
  #19  
Old 12-06-03, 10:26 AM
awesomedell's Avatar
Member
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: USA
Posts: 2,425
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
Sheez guys, I thought I might stir up a discussion, didn't mean to ruffle too many feathers.

All I know is I've been settin tile and hangin board for about 20 yrs now. I don't strictly do either, generally some of both on most jobs. But I don't have any certificates that says I'm qualified in a particular trade. I've got a bus license which doesn't take alot other than $$ & patience dealing with the red tape of anything related to any branch of government. But apparently they aren't all that hard to come by, as I've fixed the mistakes of many a "licensed contractor" I'm a big believer in word of mouth, you do a good job, at a fair price, the first time and word gets around. Of course, the same is true if you don't do those things.

I don't advertise, most of my work is from referrals, when I do get a call from someone that I haven't worked with before they want to see some references from previous customers, which I happy to provide.
 
  #20  
Old 12-07-03, 01:22 AM
D Taylor's Avatar
Member
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Cape Cod, MA Morristown, NJ Edmonton, Canada
Posts: 116
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
Don't worry about it, Dell. It wasn't you who stirred things up.

I share the same sentiment about word-of-mouth. It can help you or hurt you.

Perry's right when he says there's a big difference between being licenced and being a Journeyman. I think there's at least a four-year difference. That's the minimum amount of training it takes to become a Journeyman Tilesetter... and for good reason. If you ask the average Joe, they don't even know Tilesetting is a trade.

Installing tile with the current materials and methods is relatively easy, with the right advice and use of common sense. I welcome the DIY'er to try his or her hand at it, because there are a lot of projects they can do to save money or express their creativity. It's rewarding to them when they complete a job the right way.

There are those that don't know much about tile and pass themselves off as professionals. Enough of these people have done tilework that has failed and the general public is getting tired of it. The mistakes with tile are expensive and time consuming to fix, so I'm sure the money factor has played a big part in their frustration.

What we and other indiciduals/companies are trying to establish is a standard for training across large regions. This movement has failed in the past largely because of entities trying to make money off it, instead of doing it solely for the industry... or some would just lose interest in it.

We already have a large part of Canada and the Pacific Northwest under an agreement. A few notable states and provinces are likely waiting to see how things work before coming on board. I won't go into details about how the system works, because I'm sure some people will try to duplicate it and screw it up like before. Sorry to put it so bluntly, but it's a large concern with the group of us.

Surprisingly, we've received good vibes from the retailers we've approached. They realize the better-trained installers help their sales in the long run. We didn't expect their participation to be easily gained, so we're very happy with it. Their involvement is relatively small, but very important.

In short, we're raising the bar a bit and we'll have the support of laws to deal with those that aren't proficient and are doing inferior work. All excuses will be removed for not having some type of standardized training, because it'll be readily available to everyone who doesn't have it... at a very reasonable cost.
 
  #21  
Old 12-07-03, 06:54 AM
awesomedell's Avatar
Member
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: USA
Posts: 2,425
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
Well it certainly sounds like an admirable idea, I know here in Mo, there is little to no regulation of tile setters, or the home improvement industry as a whole. Fortunately the bad ones don't seem to hang around too long, at least out in the small towns. Wannabe seemed to be much more prevelant when I lived in the city, I guess that's because people are less likely to know each other and actually talk.
 
  #22  
Old 12-07-03, 10:54 AM
flyjetta
Visiting Guest
Posts: n/a
thanks for hijacking my thread guys!!
 
  #23  
Old 12-07-03, 02:07 PM
floorman
Visiting Guest
Posts: n/a
sorry flyjetta,i'll apologize for these guys.15 square feet in a basement that has been existing for any length of time with no stress fractures does not warrant any crack isolation membrane.I have installed tile in my home over a slab that is 12 years old with no cracks or any failure whatsoever holding up just fine.

Now on to the other ,i guess i have to take exception to what these guys are saying and stand up for my union brothers.I have been trained in one of the most talked about and duplicated training facilities in the country.ihave a plaque from the dept.of ecducation hanging on my wall that says i have met all the qualifications of being a union or any tilesetter for that matter(please pay attention to the spelling) ihave completed my 4 year apprenticeship with best trained,best qualified people anywhere in the country union and non union and have taken the best from everyone of them and practice what i have learned daily. Now i'm not saying that union is the only way cause i have seen hacks in both that is an individual thing and the best training in the world cannot fix that .So to say that it is one or the others fault is just plain wrong.

I also go to and have the opportunity to attend journeyman upgrade classes that my union sponsors and promotes.We use the latest tecniques and products ,the problem is that there are dinasaurs that still want to do it the old fashioned way and do not want to change that is ok it worked for a long time and still does work.

there is another problem,the problem that people go around talking about stuff of witch they no nothing about.If you are not familiar with the union or the way in which they conduct business then dont say anything about what you think they do or dont do.I dont nor have i heard any one say anything about the training that i feel that you guys lack or should have or that i am the better qualified or anything of that sort.

So i guess what i'm trying say is,there are a lot of different ways of getting the same result.Just because it is different does not make it wrong'just different.

Gentlemen please feed you're ego's elswhere and stick to helping people out or that the reason you are here.It almost seems like little man syndrome where you have to put the other down to bring yourself up,or buy a bigger trowel or something.

I'll be more than happy to school ya on the way we do it here in mo. for those of you who are interested in the mean time please use you're p.m. for all matters not relating to the subject or i'll have to erase them
 
  #24  
Old 12-08-03, 05:56 AM
awesomedell's Avatar
Member
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: USA
Posts: 2,425
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
Guess I'm the one that got that ball rolling. Very sorry, made a complete left turn there. Issue started over a signature, not a post. Sorry folks.
 
  #25  
Old 12-08-03, 09:21 AM
flyjetta
Visiting Guest
Posts: n/a
ha ha ha.. I was just playing with you guys.. I got the infomation I needed.. but it's cool you guys apologized..


you guys are awesome
 
 

Thread Tools
Search this Thread
 
Ask a Question
Question Title:
Description:
Your question will be posted in: