Bathroom rebuild/renovation.. 1920s house

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  #1  
Old 11-23-04, 08:49 PM
del
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Bathroom rebuild/renovation.. 1920s house

Hi,

I am part of a small team of pro automobile DIYers, trying our luck as DIY home improvement newbies. So I'm trying to educate myself as best as possible in this new challenging arena of house modding, so to speak...

We're working on a 1920s brick house in the DC area..

A 2nd story bathroom had a shower with a mosaic tile / masonry lead pan .. It had been leaking for years and the problem was covered up by previous owners..

We have basically gutted the shower .. Removed all tile, interior walls, masonry floor, lead pan, etc. (in the shower stall itself).... only the studs and plumbing remain... empty hole looking down into the first story living room, with just plumbing in place, etc....

We are planning to strip the rest of the bathroom..

Here are my questions:

1) Ideally, how far should the demo work continue?

2) What is the list of "while you're in there" stuff that should be done?

3) What is the story with this "masonry floor under the bathroom" system? What are the principles of the design? Should the rest of it (it appears to be under the entire bathroom?.. i.e. sink/toilet area) be removed? [covered in #1 perhaps..]

4) What do I need to know (or where can I learn) about the plumbing in a house of this era? Should the respective pipe work inside of and leading to/from this bathroom be replaced? What should I be worried about?

5) Would implementing a Kerdi or Laticrete 9235 based replacement for the previously lead shower pan be a good idea? Would it offer advantages over a more traditional mortar/vinyl pan? The planned exterior finish is 1" mosaic tile.

Basically.. I'm wondering what the pros would be thinking about.. and their "what I would do if it was my house" plan would be when they would walk into said 1920s bathroom..


i.e. What do I need to plan for besides the obvious: which, to me, is just replacing the fixtures, rebuilding the shower pan/interior and replacing the now-exposed easy-to-get-to plumbing contained in the the shower area itself.... ??

Basically.. We'd like to go in there once... do it right.. be done with it and move on to the next project. What would a pro do?
 
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Old 11-23-04, 10:17 PM
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del,

My first question is have you acquired a building permit? What is the budget for this? I could suggest lots of things but there is variables to what you ask, in part. So lets try and answer your questions.


1) Ideally, how far should the demo work continue?

If something is damaged, done wrong, remove it. If you are not sure, get a professional to look at it.

2) What is the list of "while you're in there" stuff that should be done?

What I ahve written is just some but need more time to give you a list.

3) What is the story with this "masonry floor under the bathroom" system? What are the principles of the design? Should the rest of it (it appears to be under the entire bathroom?.. i.e. sink/toilet area) be removed? [covered in #1 perhaps..]

Durock or Hardibacker - good stuff!

What products can be used in high moisture areas such as tub/shower surrounds, gang showers, or other areas?
DUROCK® Brand Cement Board is the best product for these areas. It is extremely moisture durable and offers mold resistance. The Tile Council of America does not recommend the use of paper faced gypsum substrates in these areas. USG supports this recommendation therefore we do not recommend that SHEETROCK® Brand Gypsum Panels, Water-Resistant or SHEETROCK® Brand HUMITEK™ Gypsum Panels be used in these areas.

Where should SHEETROCK® Brand Gypsum Panels, Water-Resistant be used?
SHEETROCK® Brand Gypsum Panels, WR are for interior areas where incidental moisture is a concern, but where added mold resistance is not a requirement.


http://www.cgcinc.com/pdf/howtos/EDR_6209.pdf


4) What do I need to know (or where can I learn) about the plumbing in a house of this era? Should the respective pipe work inside of and leading to/from this bathroom be replaced? What should I be worried about?

http://search.doityourself.com/texis...&submit=Search


5) Would implementing a Kerdi or Laticrete 9235 based replacement for the previously lead shower pan be a good idea? Would it offer advantages over a more traditional mortar/vinyl pan? The planned exterior finish is 1" mosaic tile.

Many people think that ceramic tile installations themselves are fairly watertight. They are far from that. Water can readily pass through tiny shrinkage cracks in the grout and around the contact point between the tile and grout. Sealing grout limits water infiltration but this is done more often than that of sealing an outside deck.
Many people think that ceramic tile installations themselves are fairly watertight. They are far from that. Water can readily pass through tiny shrinkage cracks in the grout and around the contact point between the tile, grout and the shower drain. Leak proof tile showers incorporate special hidden membranes that are beneath the tile and a thin cement setting bed. You made your mistake thinking that the concrete slab would direct water to the drain. It simply doesn't work that way.
Years ago before the plastics industry was born, plumbers used thin sheets of lead for shower membranes or pans. They would skillfully form the lead into the bottom of the shower area and extend it up the shower walls approximately 9 to 12 inches. All seams would be soldered to make the pan leakproof. The lead connected to a special drain fitting that allowed water that seeped past the tile to go into the drain piping instead of your house.
Lead shower pans over time do develop leaks. Corrosion happens for any number of reasons and tiny pinhole leaks cause water to spot ceilings and walls. When this happens or in the case of a new shower installation, it is time to call in the replacements. The premier shower pan membrane used today is a flexible plastic made from chlorinated polyethylene (CPE). I have used it countless times and have it in my own showers. I have never had a leak with this product.
You can buy other polyvinyl chloride (PVC) pan membranes but they tend to be stiffer and harder to work with. The PVC membranes have a memory and try to go back to their original shape when you try to bend them around wood corners. The CPE products are flexible and have no memory. They naturally conform to irregularities in wood framing and are very easy to work with. If it is necessary to seam pieces together, you use a special solvent that welds them together into one leak-proof piece.
Special clamping ring drains must be used with shower pan membranes. These plumbing fittings have adjustable finished drains that allow you to adapt them to a wide variety of cement setting beds and tile thicknesses.
The CPE or PVC membranes attach to the drain in the same manner that a rubber washer is sandwiched between a nut and a bolt. Once the clamping portion of the drain is tightened, all water that collects in the pan is directed to hidden weep holes within the drain fitting.
To prevent future leaks, you need to make sure the sub-floor beneath the liner slopes to the drain. If the liner is placed on a wood sub-floor, make sure all nail heads are recessed and there are no large splinters that could puncture the membrane. Small washed gravel needs to be placed over the weep holes as well. If you fail to do this, the cement base that supports the tile can clog these vital pathways that lead to the drain.

SHOWER STALL BASES - CUSTOM OR PRE-FAB?

http://www.dixsystems.com/003_oneliner_showerdetail.htm

http://www.ontariotile.com/preslope.html

http://www.johnbridge.com/shower_curbs.htm

http://www.johnbridge.com/mortar_bed_shower_floor.htm

http://www.tomsangle.com/docs/Shower.pdf

http://interiordec.about.com/gi/dyna...2Fdoityour.htm

SHOWER BASES;

http://www.theswancorp.com/products/...oors/index.php

http://products.jacuzzi.com/nd/SbsProdInfo.d2w/main

http://www.lascobath.com/showerpans.htm

http://www.theswancorp.com/showerfloors.html

http://www.us.kohler.com/onlinecatal...ower+Receptors

http://www.asbcorp.com/category.cfm?catid=4


Does this help for starters?
 
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Old 11-24-04, 11:08 AM
del
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I appreciate your reply. However, I think that you are giving me the quickie FAQ/boilerplate-response type post.. The URLs are, however, VERY useful.

I know about the evils of things like greenboard in a shower, despite the recommended material handling procedures that some of the vendors will quote... Cement backer boards will provide something similar to what was originally there in the 20s... Thanks for the tip there.. although a bit obvious.

I find your cut and paste of the "tile does not hold water" thing a bit insulting. Again, stating the obvious.

I am asking about the pros and cons of modern shower building techniques that employ Laticrete (9235) and Schlüter (Kerdi) products when compared to the more traditional PVC/CPE based pan...

"If something is damaged, done wrong, remove it. If you are not sure, get a professional to look at it." .. I mean.. I get the impression that you think I am a moron because I am a DIY guy and not a pro house builder? I'm a bit confused.

What I'm getting at with the demo question is whether or not there is any merit to gutting the bathroom entirely or just focusing on the shower since that is the area that is obviously subject to water damage...and just accepting the original, currently non-leaking, plumbing and other materials currently in place as "being fine" for the next XX years.

I'm also looking for someone to provide a little general context around such a job, based on their own personal experience... something which I am lacking. What do pros recommend when they have a similar scenario bathroom as the candidate for a renovation?

Do I have permits? Yes, I have all permits and I'm a fully certified bonded/insured contractor. That's why I'm on doityourself.com.. Let's not turn this into a discussion on DIY guys and permits. That's off-topic.

I am here to find help in my quest for self-education to the extent that I can execute the project in a "workmanship" like manner....... I am just looking for the advice of those with experience.. I am a newbie, but I am not stupid. I possess the technical capability and work ethic to complete a job of this nature; I only lack in experience and the necessary background knowledge that goes along with it.

We are off to a good start, but if you could answer some of the questions in my original post... it would be very helpful. I can post some pictures if it would be of use.
 
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Old 11-24-04, 11:30 AM
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Del,

If you are a contractor and you are asking all these questions then I have to question your experience. I will post your thread to the Plumbing section but I would gain access where you feel it is necessary to replace the plumbing. I will do the same for Tile.

We provide short, direct answers to questions and cannot provide lectures in a class of Bathrooms 101. As you seem to desire more information, do a search on Do-It-Yourself.com within the Information and How-To's and search for your specific questions or on the web.

Didn't mean to offend your intelligence but I would expect more from you as advising us who you are. This is for DIY'ers and the answers given are more suited to the needs of the majority, not for Contractors who would be at a higher level of experience and/or knowledge.

If you have obtained the permits then the specific questions should be directed to an Inspector for any clarification. We do not eyes to see what is exactly there nor do we know the Codes where you live to make a statement to its vailidity.

Hope this helps!
 
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