surface prep- help!


  #1  
Old 11-29-04, 12:42 PM
forester
Visiting Guest
Posts: n/a
surface prep- help!

I just started trying to remove my kitchen vinyl floor and I think I may be still working on it at Christmas. When I pull up the vinyl, a lot of the backing stays attached to the concrete floor. I've got a floor scraper but it's not doing much good. Is there a power grinder or some machine that I can rent to do the job or any other ways to do this? Any tips would be greatly appreciated. I don't want spend Christmas scraping the floor. Thanks.
 
  #2  
Old 11-29-04, 05:27 PM
dennisjonescon.
Visiting Guest
Posts: n/a
floor scraper

Home Depot or any tool rental store should have a scrapper. They work great on concrete floors. Keep the blade sharp and it will cut clean.

Dennis Jones
 
  #3  
Old 11-30-04, 10:51 AM
Lee B
Visiting Guest
Posts: n/a
I have the same problem.

I've painfully scraped all the linoleum from my concrete floor. There is some paper residue left on the floor, and the adhesive is still there.

A razor sharp 4" scraper doesn't even faze the paper residue - it skims across the top, and I've tried a stripper (not that kind!) and it didn't touch it either. The scraper doesn't touch the adhesive at all. I've used a belt sander to remove the paper (very tedious), but the adhesive still barely comes off. I could spend 30 minutes and two belts just to do 4 square feet - and I'd have a lot to go! And using the belt sander after the adhesive stripper has been sitting for an hour simply gums up the belt, but still doesn't remove much. A wire wheel on a drill is as effective as the belt sander.

Do I really need to be concerned with removing all of the adhesive? In some areas, where the adhesive was originally troweled on, it has 1/64" ridges. Another problem with the adhesive is that it is a dark black/brown, and I can't use a pencil for my layout lines. Any other suggestions?

Sorry for hijacking this thread, but I figured my problem is similar, and the answers will be the same.
 
  #4  
Old 11-30-04, 11:52 AM
T
Member
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 1,078
Upvotes: 0
Received 0 Upvotes on 0 Posts
To both of you, don't grind any black adhesive. It very likely contains asbestos. If you lay a towel on the paper backing and pour very hot water onto it and let it sit, it will soften the glue and paper backing. As long as there are no flaking areas of the black adhesive, you can wet it, scrape it, and then go over it with a thinset rated for use over cutback adhesives and you will be fine. The biggest concern over a slab is any cracks you may find. If you find cracks with no vertilcle movement, repair the crack and then use a crack supression membrane over your floor, such a Ditra or Nobleseal before setting your tile. If you have any verticle movement in your crack then it's too risky to tile over, membrane or not and a different flooring should be considered. Remember to keep the adhesive wet while scraping it. Asbestos only presents a problem if it becomes airborn and wetting it down before scraping will prevent that. Do not use any sort of solvents to break down the adhesive as it will prevent the thinset from bonding to the slab.
 
  #5  
Old 11-30-04, 12:30 PM
Lee B
Visiting Guest
Posts: n/a
Thank you for your help.

It probably is asbestos adhesive. Do I need to remove ALL of it, or just have a higher percentage of concrete exposed than adhesive? The hot water thing really works? (I suppose it does since you suggested it; I just hope it works in my application.)

I do have a couple small cracks (no vertical). How do you repair them? Where would I find the membrane materials you suggested? I've seen the Mapei Mapelastic stuff at Lowes - that stuff is expensive! (I'm planning on using the membrane as a sealer around the Hardibacker surrounding the tub as well.) It's a 40+ year old slab, and the cracks are less than 1/16" wide.
 
  #6  
Old 11-30-04, 01:07 PM
T
Member
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 1,078
Upvotes: 0
Received 0 Upvotes on 0 Posts
If you have cracks I'd use the membrane over the floor For old cracks 1/16" some thinsets will say it's ok to go over them, but at the very least, I'd cover them with reguard, lay in a pice of 6" mesh tape over the crack and recoat about a foot on either side . You should be able to get it or order it from a local tile shop or home center. As long as there is not any flaking or thick clumps of adhesive, your fine, but if you can get it to just a staining even better. In your surround there is no need to go over it with a trowel on memebrane as long as you have roofing felt over your studs and overlapping the drip edge/nailing flange of the tub. What ever you do, don't use both roofing felt behind and trowel on waterproofer over, one or the other only. THe exception is if you decide to build niches in your surround in place of shelves and soap dishes, you will not be able to get the roofing felt behind them obviously, so waterproofing the entire niche with Redguard or pro red including a couple of inches around the outside of the niche is the way to go.
 
  #7  
Old 11-30-04, 01:38 PM
Lee B
Visiting Guest
Posts: n/a
Interesting...
I read in another thread here where it is common to use both the roofing felt and a trowel-on membrane for extra water resistance. I suppose the two layers could trap in moisture, causing damage to the Hardibacker? (I do have felt in place.) Is that the reasoning? If that's the case, less work for me!

I do have the felt coming over the inner edge of the tub; however, after I caulk the tile, all of the moisture would appear to drain toward the front sides of the tub behind the tile, and down the wall.

Back to the cracks...Just to clarify...trowel on the membrane (Redguard or other), apply the 6" mesh, and then trowel on another membrane? Do I let the first coat dry, or is it something done at one time? (like taping walls)

Does the same rules for stripping the adhesive off of the concrete apply to the membrane? (bare concrete preferred, adhesive "stain" is acceptable, and a thin coat of old adhesive is okay)

Thanks again!
 
  #8  
Old 11-30-04, 01:56 PM
T
Member
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 1,078
Upvotes: 0
Received 0 Upvotes on 0 Posts
Even sealed, the grout is still vapor emisive. Water that gets into the hardi, barring some catostophic failure in installation, will not be dripping behind the backer, the felt though keeps water from absorbing into the studs, where mold and rot can occur. It wont take long for the Red guard to be ready for a second coat. You wnat the mesh embedded in the first coat. Same rules apply.
 
  #9  
Old 11-30-04, 06:48 PM
floorman
Visiting Guest
Posts: n/a
red guard or the other one blue 92 are paintable membranes that you roll on with a paint roller.Roll some product over the joint then the mesh ,then roll over it again and let dry.
You can use ardex feather finish too to go over the cut back adheasive and encapsulate it.If you know the age of the floor it could help determine if there is asbestos or not armstrong quit putting it in there products in 83 but probably didnt sell out of them until 84,or 85,but the only way to know without a doubt is to have it tested ,so if you don't know the age then treat as if it is "hot" and don't disturb it too much,like walking through it and dragging it all over the house,cause then it gets everywhere and then you've got a problem
 
  #10  
Old 11-30-04, 10:40 PM
Lee B
Visiting Guest
Posts: n/a
The flooring was older than 1980 - by the orange color alone. I wouldn't be surprised if it was the original linoleum from the unit's build in 1964. It's probably hot. Fortunately, I'm not currently living there - I've been remodeling the place before I move in, so anything that has been tracked around there will get swept out. I've been doing my best to keep dust down.

Tonight, I tried soaking the adhesive. The problem with using hot water is that in the super-cold climate of Southern California (yeah, I am being sarcastic ) the cold slab cools the near-boiling water in less than a minute. I tried heating the water-soaked towel with a heat gun, but there was no way that heat gun could warm the water-cooled area (because of the cold slab).

In some areas, I was able to scrape up a small amount of the adhesive, but it just doesn't seem like a viable method. Any other suggestions? I read something somewhere about using some caustic materials. Would the fumes of this be a really bad idea? (worse than a belt sander?)

The thinset I've purchased (something for porcelain tile from Custom Building Products available at Home Depot, which I just found out is the manufacturer of Redguard - http://www.custombuildingproducts.co...er=arc&lang=en) says that it can be used for cutback adhesive that is properly prepared. I've yet to find what properly prepared cutback adhesive is. Any suggestions? There is a product mentioned on the bottom of the page where that link goes that mentions finishing/leveling over cutback adhesive. Might this be a good idea?

Thank you!
 
  #11  
Old 12-02-04, 11:17 AM
Lee B
Visiting Guest
Posts: n/a
Well, most scrapers won't touch the stuff. I've been using a razor blade scraper, and I have to replace the blade at least every one square foot. It's really slow and tedious. I do see what is meant by a stain of adhesive.
 
 

Thread Tools
Search this Thread
 
Ask a Question
Question Title:
Description:
Your question will be posted in: