Replacing Linoleum with Marble Tile


  #1  
Old 02-27-05, 12:08 PM
kirkeric
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Replacing Linoleum with Marble Tile

Hello,

I am replacing some linoleum with marble tile on a second floor bathroom. Measurements are 61" by 106". Is it necessary for me to use that gypsum underlay that I see on all the shows?

This home was built in 1958.

Thank you for your help.

Eric
 
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Old 02-27-05, 03:01 PM
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Before anything else, get rid of the vinyl and if it has 1/4" luan under it that has to go too. Marble needs twice the stiffness in a floor that ceramic does. In order to know if your floor passes the test we need to know how thick and what kind of wood is under the vinyl, right down to the joists. Then we need to know the size and spacing of the joists and the length of their unsupported span. After all that then we can get into what you will need to do to ensure that the marble floor lasts for the next 50 years.
 
  #3  
Old 02-27-05, 06:34 PM
sailfishoney
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a suggestion to your question

c [QUOTE=kirkeric]Hello,

I am replacing some linoleum with marble tile on a second floor bathroom. Measurements are 61" by 106". Is it necessary for me to use that gypsum underlay that I see on all the shows?

This home was built in 1958.

Thank you for your help.

Eric the reason for using durrock on 2nd story floors or 1st floor if it is wood, it is to make sure the floor does not move causing grout joints to crack and to secure any vibration and diffenatly remove vinyl on any floor project. I personaly use mastic( a thin layer of wall glue) on plywood before laying down your durock. then and screw down durrock, I fill in any seams with thin set or glue. make sure when you use that particular marble tile(look alike right?) that you spread mud on the floor and on the back oh the tile. This tile along with others need this proceedure to have a good bond. if you dont get the even amount of mud under those tiles, in the future the corners can crack off and tile can break. by the way you will need 5 sheets of 3x5 durrock,70 feet of tile 1 bag of sanded grout and almost 2 bags of multipurpose thin set mortar (recogmended) for your project.you will need to get longer bolts for your toilet and wax ring, i was bored thought i would help u out with your shopping list. lol good luck
 

Last edited by sailfishoney; 02-27-05 at 06:42 PM. Reason: add on
  #4  
Old 02-28-05, 09:01 AM
kirkeric
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Thanks Tile Guy,
I will let you know more when I begin ripping this stuff up. The house seems to have been built pretty sturdy so I am guessing that there is going to be a 3/4 inch plywood floor beneath this linoleum. Not sure about the luan, or even what it looks like, but I am sure I will know it when I see it.
Eric

Originally Posted by Tileguybob
Before anything else, get rid of the vinyl and if it has 1/4" luan under it that has to go too. Marble needs twice the stiffness in a floor that ceramic does. In order to know if your floor passes the test we need to know how thick and what kind of wood is under the vinyl, right down to the joists. Then we need to know the size and spacing of the joists and the length of their unsupported span. After all that then we can get into what you will need to do to ensure that the marble floor lasts for the next 50 years.
 
  #5  
Old 02-28-05, 09:09 AM
kirkeric
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It sounds like it is a good enough idea to use the durock based on this and some other reads. You have an interesting way of calculating, I thought 4 pieces would be enough. I also went with 45 tiles since it is about 9 feet by 5.

Now this thinset and sand grout. Is this the type you mix? I thought I could buy the tile glue and go to work.

So if I understand this I put a coat of thinset, lay the durock and screw it down (what type screws?). Then I cover the seams with some durock seam sealer I presume? Will I be able to then begin laying tile at that point?

These are the marble tiles from Home Depot. Hell, they could be fake, I was pretty sure they were real. I know it costs about $40 for each pack of 5.

Appreciate your continued help as well.

Eric
[QUOTE=sailfishoney]c
Originally Posted by kirkeric
Hello,

I am replacing some linoleum with marble tile on a second floor bathroom. Measurements are 61" by 106". Is it necessary for me to use that gypsum underlay that I see on all the shows?

This home was built in 1958.

Thank you for your help.

Eric the reason for using durrock on 2nd story floors or 1st floor if it is wood, it is to make sure the floor does not move causing grout joints to crack and to secure any vibration and diffenatly remove vinyl on any floor project. I personaly use mastic( a thin layer of wall glue) on plywood before laying down your durock. then and screw down durrock, I fill in any seams with thin set or glue. make sure when you use that particular marble tile(look alike right?) that you spread mud on the floor and on the back oh the tile. This tile along with others need this proceedure to have a good bond. if you dont get the even amount of mud under those tiles, in the future the corners can crack off and tile can break. by the way you will need 5 sheets of 3x5 durrock,70 feet of tile 1 bag of sanded grout and almost 2 bags of multipurpose thin set mortar (recogmended) for your project.you will need to get longer bolts for your toilet and wax ring, i was bored thought i would help u out with your shopping list. lol good luck
 
  #6  
Old 03-01-05, 11:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Tileguybob
After all that then we can get into what you will need to do to ensure that the marble floor lasts for the next 50 years.
50 years? The floors in Rome have been there for centuries. And in Eqypt for even longer. Shoot for thousands buddy .

Listen to Bob's advice. If you lay it right the first time, it will be there for ever. That sort of sounds like.......never mind.
 
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Old 03-02-05, 06:58 AM
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I'll third Bob's advice. That structure info is very important as a stone installation will generally require some beefing up of what you have there now. As for the Durock or any other backer, they alone do not make for a stronger floor so adding it won't really make the floor better. Consider it to only be a bonding surface fro the tile to isolate the stone from the seasonal adjustment of the wood below. The wood below needs to be strong enough on its own though to support the stone without the backer. As for setting the Backer to the floor, the thinset underneath is not there to bond the backer to the floor either. It is there to evenly support the backer and prevent voids between the backer and the subfloor. Mastic will not provide the compressive strength needed under the backer, so use unmodified thinset for that part of the installation and modified thinset for filling and taping the joints betwen sheets and for setting your stone. Go with white thinset since it's stone. You might even jump to a medium set mortar as it has a larger aggrigate and does not bottom out when the stone is placed on the trowel lines.
 
  #8  
Old 03-02-05, 01:46 PM
kirkeric
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Thanks. I hope to be lifting that linoleum to take a peek beneath this weekend. So, durock (with an already supportive floor), unmodified thinset to set durock, modified thinset for laying the stone/marble tiles. Are these labled as such at the store (unmod verses modified)? Now this thinset that I set the tiles is not also used as grout is it? How thick should I lay the thinset? I think I read earlier that I should coat the bottom of tile and floor, then lay it? I mean is there going to be so much that it squeezes up between the tiles (which is why I asked about the grout).

THanks for the info.

Eric

Originally Posted by Tilebri
I'll third Bob's advice. That structure info is very important as a stone installation will generally require some beefing up of what you have there now. As for the Durock or any other backer, they alone do not make for a stronger floor so adding it won't really make the floor better. Consider it to only be a bonding surface fro the tile to isolate the stone from the seasonal adjustment of the wood below. The wood below needs to be strong enough on its own though to support the stone without the backer. As for setting the Backer to the floor, the thinset underneath is not there to bond the backer to the floor either. It is there to evenly support the backer and prevent voids between the backer and the subfloor. Mastic will not provide the compressive strength needed under the backer, so use unmodified thinset for that part of the installation and modified thinset for filling and taping the joints betwen sheets and for setting your stone. Go with white thinset since it's stone. You might even jump to a medium set mortar as it has a larger aggrigate and does not bottom out when the stone is placed on the trowel lines.
 
  #9  
Old 03-31-05, 04:20 PM
kirkeric
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Hey Tile Guy,

I finally began ripping this old linoleum up. Looks like it has almost like a tar paper beneath, plus a 1/4 sheet of plywood. Should I pull that 1/4 inch up too? I noticed that if I do, it does become level with flooring outside the bathroom in hall.
I am going to wait your advice, it does look like it would come up easier than chipping this stuff off.

THanks,

Eric


Originally Posted by kirkeric
Thanks Tile Guy,
I will let you know more when I begin ripping this stuff up. The house seems to have been built pretty sturdy so I am guessing that there is going to be a 3/4 inch plywood floor beneath this linoleum. Not sure about the luan, or even what it looks like, but I am sure I will know it when I see it.
Eric
 
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Old 03-31-05, 08:31 PM
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Here is what Tilebri said in his first post.In case you want to get going now.

"Before anything else, get rid of the vinyl and if it has 1/4" luan under it that has to go too"

The 1/4 plywood has to go. It is the luan he was talking about.
 
  #11  
Old 04-01-05, 04:32 AM
kirkeric
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Thanks. I was just unsure if this was luan. I did know exactly what luan was so was expecting something different than what appears to be just thin plywood.

It actually makes it easier to remove in removing all of it.

Thanks again.

Eric

Originally Posted by joneq
Here is what Tilebri said in his first post.In case you want to get going now.

"Before anything else, get rid of the vinyl and if it has 1/4" luan under it that has to go too"

The 1/4 plywood has to go. It is the luan he was talking about.
 
  #12  
Old 04-01-05, 02:38 PM
kirkeric
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Hello again,

I got all this stuff removed. What lies beneath is the same hardwood flooring I have throughout the house. Should it be safe to lay this tile?

It is typical hardwood...like 3/4 in.

Thanks,

Eric

Originally Posted by kirkeric
Thanks. I was just unsure if this was luan. I did know exactly what luan was so was expecting something different than what appears to be just thin plywood.

It actually makes it easier to remove in removing all of it.

Thanks again.

Eric
 
  #13  
Old 04-02-05, 06:31 AM
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No, it is not safe as it is. Clarify for us, is this hardwood flooring over a subfloor or is it plank subfloor? If it's hardwood flooring over subfloor, then while you experiencing the excavation bug, continue to excavate down to the subfloor. If it's plank subfloor (which I will assume given the age of the house), you will need to add a layer of plywood over the plank subfloor before you install the cement board-use a cement board like Hardi or Duraock or wonder. Stay away from gypsum laden backers such as Denshield or Fiberock. Not sure if Rhino has gypsum or not, but visually, Rhino, Fiberock and Hardi all look pretty much the same. Anyway, since this is a stone isntallation, shame on all of us for not asking some structural info. What size joists do you have, how far apart are they spaced, and how long do the span when measured from below the room? THis will dertermine if you need to sister up any of the existing joists as well as the thickness of the plywood you will need to install, which as a heads up, will be atleast 1/2" bc graded exterior ply.
 
  #14  
Old 04-02-05, 12:33 PM
kirkeric
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It is plank subfloor with joists space about 14-16 inches apart. Seems very sturdy other than a knot hole in one spot. The room is only 5-8 feet.

The entire upstairs is wood plank flooring directly attached to joists, though I noticed a deep well beneath toilet, more space that usual between upper floor and lower ceilng.

I sure hope that homes were built well enough to at least put furniture in the upper levels because this sure scares me when we are concerned of a couple hundred pounds spread over 5X8 area. As I type, the tiles are sitting in boxes, directly on top of one another on same floor capacity where they are going.

There are two large bedrooms up here, beds, chairs, computers, etc. Can you or someone help me to understand if there is grave concern here or not?

Thanks,

Eric

Originally Posted by Tilebri
No, it is not safe as it is. Clarify for us, is this hardwood flooring over a subfloor or is it plank subfloor? If it's hardwood flooring over subfloor, then while you experiencing the excavation bug, continue to excavate down to the subfloor. If it's plank subfloor (which I will assume given the age of the house), you will need to add a layer of plywood over the plank subfloor before you install the cement board-use a cement board like Hardi or Duraock or wonder. Stay away from gypsum laden backers such as Denshield or Fiberock. Not sure if Rhino has gypsum or not, but visually, Rhino, Fiberock and Hardi all look pretty much the same. Anyway, since this is a stone isntallation, shame on all of us for not asking some structural info. What size joists do you have, how far apart are they spaced, and how long do the span when measured from below the room? THis will dertermine if you need to sister up any of the existing joists as well as the thickness of the plywood you will need to install, which as a heads up, will be atleast 1/2" bc graded exterior ply.
 
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Old 04-02-05, 12:43 PM
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Well I wanted to clarify about whether you were looking at plank subfloor or hardwood flooring over the planks. It's just planks. For stone, the structure needs to be twice as strong as that for ceramic. Not that the house will collapse, but the house and all it's framing deflects, or bends under loads, from furniture, walking, etc. Most floor coverings don't care about deflection. Ceramic does. It requires a deflection of L/360 which means that the floor in the middle under a load can only deflect 1/360th" for every inch of span. That's pretty strong and most codes no a days require that as a minimum. Stone is very rigid and very fragile, especially soft stones with veining such as marble. For that, you need a deflection rating of L/720, which means that the floor cannot bend in the center of a joist more than 1/720th of an inch for every inch of span. Houses don't usually meet this spec unless stone installations are intended for a given area. So, what are your joist sizes and what are their spans as measured from below?
 
 

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